Usually I just type first and think later when replying to a post on this forum. Then I may go back and edit it if I either said something stupid, or if I can find a better way to say something stupid. In this case, I first drank a cup of coffee to make sure I was awake and not dreaming. Then I had to do a bit of checking to see if I had been in a coma while the calendar skipped from September 17 directly to April Fool's Day.

Really ?? The Canadian Pacific and Westinghouse just "wanted to see what would happen" if they dumped the air at 112 1/2 mph without baling off the independent ?? REALLY ?? If you ask me, the reason it got rough below 15 mph was most likely their train bumping over the crossties. And they measured the brake shoe temps on the engine and cars ?? Did anybody measure the flat spots ?? Anyway, 'nuff said there.... I won't speculate about "dropping a bag of flour" at that speed.

As for the last comment, first let me say in wide awake and fully conscious September 18 mode, that Mr Great Western is a most highly respected and valued friend of mine, and of the Audrey phenomenon. He had to have been kidding --- Audrey's top speed is probably 35 or 40 mph, but considering her age and the aftermarket back truck, we plan to shut things off somewhere around 15 mph. Unless running light, my training dictates releasing the independent brake whenever we go into emergency, and, finally, the new Canuck high pressure boiler "soon to be delivered" for Audrey is an updated, all welded version of the original, with an MAWP of 180 psi, same as her original. So, please consider me to have taken my razzing good naturedly.

To one and all, Happy April First.

"However, it was only when we got down to 15 mph that the locomotive bucked like a kicking steer and really threw us around in the cab"

Sammy,
Calm down my friend. Definite razzing there. Better to keep Audrey down in the lower numbers.

I thought the same thing about the tests. That seemed like an unusual way to test components. I wonder if they created any flat spots on the wheels or rail damage? it does not seem like something the locomotive or MOW departments would be thrilled about.
Many years ago, CNR No. 6218 came through our village. I went to the junction and got in the way. One of our old section men was there. He said he was glad to see steam go because it made his life easier -- fewer bad spots in the rails from slipping drivers, etc..

Yes, Rick, It sounds way too far fetched to me. Is April Fool's celebrated in Canuckstan ?? Maybe you should check the date on that employee magazine --- For comparison, BN used to get pretty silly around that time of year.

Keeping Calm & Steaming On....

I'm tempted to say that Omer Lavallee is one of the very last people I'd expect to spin a false yarn.

This in fact sounds very similar to the kind of 'testing' that Mallard would be used to conduct a year later. Note that Omer specifically mentions the amount of driver-center heating that would result from an umbailed automatic application -- I'd be more interested in the differential between tire temperature and wheel-center temperature (the F2a's had Boxpok centers so a pretty good heatsink relative to the metal of the driver tires!) I suspect that the driver-brake proportioning was intentionally set so that an automatic application would apply less force than the 'rest' of the wheels in the train would see.

The 15mph is an artifact of not releasing or bailing off a hard application as you get down into the lower speed range -- the thing the Decelakron/Decelostat was designed to 'simulate'. In my not-so-humble opinion nobody calling thenselves engineers would conduct such a test just to find out what would be obvious: that braking effort would be ridiculously high, essentially locked-wheel slide, at low speed if adequate for high-speed emergency (or even full-service) application.

I am reminded -- and find I'm still appalled by -- what happened when we tested GG1s with Amfleet consists in braking from that speed. It was, you might say, unexpected but not very surprising.

I'm surprised no one has brought up the very careful comparison testing in Kiefer's 1947 study of motive power (which compared road timing of Niagaras vs. two- and three-unit E7s in fast passenger service between Harmon and Chicago). One of the tacit points there is the potential time saving if the single refueling stop (at Wayport, I believe) could be eliminated -- which was the premise of the 64T tender slated to be provided for the C1a duplex replacements for the Hudsons. (My assumption was and is that a tender with sufficient additional coal to give a Niagara the required range with safety margin would have either been too heavy and long, or necessarily articulated or built in sections, to be fully practical vs. diesels.)

It did happen:
https://www.rcinet.ca/en/2020/09/18/can ... ocomotive/

That speed record stood for many years and was finally eclipsed by the LRC in 1976 at 129 mph and UAC/CN Turbo at 139 mph, also in 1976 with an unofficial Turbo run said to be at close to 170 mph, or so it is claimed. I have ridden the Turbo at 110 mph in regular service on the CN Kingston Subdivision.
It is also said that the CNR's 5700-series Hudsons ran, unofficially, at speeds approaching 120 mph. It does seem possible on good track.

Thinking about it, there must have been some kind of monkeyshines going on if they didn't slide any wheels in that brake test. And, if they had locked them up, there wouldn't have been too much difference in the temperatures of the brake shoes... Rick, any chance you could scan the entire report ??

Sammy,
That's about all I have. I'll dig around in some of the old material around here to see if something else comes up.
Not sure if any of Canadian Westinghouse's files exist, or any of the original CPR reports.

Here is something from Ray Kennedy's Old Time Trains site. There is a pic of one of the typical consists:

http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/p ... ubilee.htm

Say, here is more showing the testing data:

https://exporail.org/canrail/canadian_r ... 4-2020.pdf

And NOW we have "the rest of the story".

Interestingly enough, my earlier comment regarding "being in Sep 18th mode" was a bullseye --- the test in question took place on that same date, 87 years ago. There IS one thing that puzzles me, however... How hot do the driver tires have to get before they come loose ?? I bet Brother Ellsworth can tell us.

One of my former employees installed 30 inch tires at 400 degrees F. My thought is they are talking brake shoe temperature, not tire temperature.

To the moderators, my apologies with his thread if it seems too "railfannish." However, perhaps there is some good take-away information on emergency braking, brake shoe and tire heating, etc.
The possible damage to, or loosening of the tires might have been a factor these folks looked at. One wonders what the folks at the CPR roundhouse thought, and they must have looked No. 3003 over very well after all these shenanigans.
Mr. Blevins' report has some interesting data. He shows them drifting to a stop without braking from 40 mph and taking just over 3-1/2 miles -- this was a lightweight train. His charts are hard to read, for me, in the pdf, but the one showing the intersection of tractive effort and speed likely puts paid to my earlier notion of CNR 5700-series Hudsons attaining 120 mph in service. With the resistance forces, this might have been achieved had a 5700, with 43,000 pounds tractive effort been pulling a light weight train like the CPR's. However, they normally pulled 6-axle cars including rpos, buffets, etc., with considerably more weight and rolling and other resistance forces. They were fast locomotives and no doubt exceeded 100 mph in the right conditions.
Canadian Pacific briefly held a world speed record with steam, not entirely for fast running, but for overall station to station operation on the same subdivision as the No. 3003 tests were performed. Somewhere around here, I have that info. That was with Hudson locos and heavyweight equipment. There was no doubt some fast running, but, more importantly, good train management.
My recollections are limited. I do remember riding behind CNR steam in the late 1950s. On a local, behind a heavy Pacific, I especially recall being surprised about how quickly we accelerated from the station -- that would have been a heavy train with rpo and other heavy cars. There was a straight stretch adjacent to our home, so we witnessed CNR's best passenger power at speed. However, this stretch of about three miles was punctuated with super-elevated curves. In the remembered ride, we would have departed the station and entered the first curve, but accelerated briskly, reaching relatively high speed before meeting the second curve and then crossing a high trestle that required a speed reduction. Looking back, it was good railroading that those engine crews did every day!

Here is a bit more on the CPR's fastest scheduled train, from Ray Kennedy's Old Time Trains site:

http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/C ... y_psgr.htm

"The new Lake Shore line beginning June 29,1914 featured one daily sleeper train 37 and 38 between Montreal and Toronto via Trenton. A new Limited service began May 31, 1914 over the old line Number 19 and Number 22 The Canadian between Montreal-Toronto-Detroit via the Michigan Central tunnel to Chicago. It was rerouted via the Lake Shore Line December 13, 1914. Number 21 the Chicago Express and No. 22 the Overseas via Trenton later became the premier train service. Following creation of the CNR it became a racetrack to compete and show off what each company had to offer the travelling public. So important was it that the CPR built two steam locomotives, of a new type and design just for this run!
K1 class 4-8-4's 3100 and 3101 built in August and October 1928, respectively, they were impressive looking engines designed to haul increasingly heavier trains on this important route. Montreal and Toronto are the main business centres of Quebec and Ontario, while Montreal was also the System Headquarters of both railways. The best time was 7 hours and 40 minutes for the approximately 335-mile run. Schedules became faster and faster between the two railways until they were reduced on the CPR to 6 hours and 15 minutes!
On the Winchester Sub, east of Smiths Falls, the 124 miles to Montreal West was covered in 108 minutes by No. 38 the Royal York for a start to stop average of 68.9 mph! During the summer of 1931, this was the world's fastest scheduled train. This may have surprised the CNR, but it positively alarmed the famed Great Western Railway in England, whose Cheltenham Flyer had held the record on the much shorter (77.3 miles) Swindon-London (Paddington) run at 66.3 mph. Effective September 14,1931 the GWR had instructed its drivers to open the regulator a little more and make the run in 67 minutes for an average of 69.2 mph! The British reclaimed the world record as befitted a nation renown for its high speed steam locomotives."

Those daytime trains must have been hauled by Hudsons or heavy Pacifics. The CPR Northerns ran the overnight trains, but could have done daytime service.

I can well imagine the Master Mechanic was horrified, not to mention the head end crew. It also strikes me as very unlikely that they would go along with this scheme unless instructed IN WRITING by means of train order, bulletin, special instruction, or a letter signed by their superior. After all, if anything goes wrong a board of inquiry won't go by what has been SAID, they'll hang you for what is WRITTEN.

The bit about throwing out a bag of flour still sounds bogus to me, too. It seems like they would have instructed the engineer to dump the air when he reached a preselected location, maybe something like a milepost or a signal....