I grew up in Tallahassee and remember them bringing that engine in there. She looks like she's made out of wood, the iron is so corroded after being in water for that long. She'd sat in the front yard of the person who recovered her for a very long time through the 70s.
http://www.flarr.com/fun.htm
The drivers are permanently sprung to the position they stayed in while underwater, so not all 4 of the drivers even touch the rails. There's no tender, either. Other than painting her every now and then and putting on a crude sheet metal 'stack' and a playwood 'cab', she's in horrible shape. That is, until you realize the condition she was in when found. But so much more could be done, and sitting outside in that climate sure isn't the best thing in the world, either.

The simplest option for 4876 is that she stay in Baltimore, totally keeping with the museum's posted mission statement, and maybe interested parties can raise funds to stabilize her and turn her into a decent looking display item, including periodic upkeep. Yes, if someone else wants her enough then they can see about moving it but as we've discussed this endlessly, the money to do that could do a great deal for the engine if it did not have to be spent for a move.

No G's should be scrapped anymore (IMHO) and this one has an interesting story to go with it. It's not something Amtrak or WUS is going to want to have anything to do with nor should they but as no one was killed in the accident and so many years have passed, it's just something interesting in the engine's history. It's too bad it had not long ago been one of the G's that ended up in the hands of folks who wanted one and instead got one with no colorful story but at least it's still extent and could still be preserved if folks want to make an effort and write some checks. This is reasonable and doable. It's not a build-a-J3a-from-scratch pipe dream.

Steve

Can this topic be locked? The dead horse has been flogged already. 4876 isn't going anywhere, nor is there some kind hearted old millionaire who will take a shine to it and "save" it. Not gonna happen, nor should it. There are much more worthy candidates.

May she rust in peace.

Russ

Russ, you can lock the thread yourself by NOT CLICKING ON THE LINK ON THE MAIN PAGE!!! It is so very simple to do that it is astounding that you haven't thought of it already!

As I stated in the 8888 thread, the reason why both 8888 and 4876 illicit so much attention and discussion is because they are inexorably tied to an important story. As we look back through history we find time and time again that people love heroic stories. They don't really care about cold pieces of equipment, but they do care about "human interest" stories.

Why do people still flock to Gettysburg? Its just one of countless rolling fields in Pennsylvania. It in and of itself is not worthy of the tens of thousands who visit every year. But it is tied to an important story from American history. How about the Titanic? Just one of dozens of early 20th century Atlantic ocean liners. Why are so many people still fascinated by it? Even in railroadom why does anyone care about the General, other than it is a Civil War era 4-4-0? Lets go on... How about the Kate Shelley bridge? Just another large railroad viaduct, until you start telling the story of miss Kate. What about the bus that Rosa Parks refused to go to the back of? Its just another GMC bus, isn't it?

One of the most important things to know about our customer base is that they don't really give a rats ass if a certain locomotive was the first or last of her type, or that engine so and so has Young valve gear instead of Walschearts. No, those distinctions are only important to railfans and enthusiasts. Our customers want to know how this equipment we save relates to them. They can relate to people drowning on a ship or dying on a battlefield or being on/trying to stop a runaway train. They can relate to Rosa Parks and her story.

The stuff that we save are mere props in a story. Our museums are nothing but places where stories are told. And if we can have some props in our museums that tell stories that the average Joe knows about, then we stand a much greater chance of getting Joe to visit us. Units such as 4876 and 8888 are in this respect, MORE IMPORTANT than much of the equipment already preserved.

Mr. Hot Metal,
I think you over estimate the value of the 4876 (and in a similar vein, the 8888). While both are "famous" among the railfan circles, I doubt anyone in the general public would know what you're talking about. The only benefit to them over any other GG1 or SD40-2 is that it's easier for us to tell the story. I could take any GG1 and have a few employee recollections posted by them and the public's reaction would be exactly the same. "Oh. That's a great story".

Each piece of equipment in preservation should be able to stand on its own merit for what it did for the railroad and/or why it's important to preserve it, not simply "Hey, this GG1 caused the most spectacular crash ever in DC". Now If there weren't 15 or so other candidates in preservation already, I'd be all for restoring the '76. HOWEVER, there are several other-better- candidates way more worthy of the money. For what you'd pay to move, clean, and restore (even cosmetically) the '76, you could finish the 4800 (a much better candidate) and have some dough left over for another G or maybe some towards something else, or whatever.

My thing about getting this locked is every 6 months or so, this whole "We gotta save the 4876!!!!ZOMG!!!" thing pops up and for several weeks, much hot air is expended about this should be done or that should be done or the B&O Museum is vilified for letting it rot, and then someone suggests gutting an AEM-7 to make it run again, then someone else chimes in about running it at IRM on 600vdc trolley wire and then it all dies off for a while, then someone new comes along, digs it up and we start the whole process over again.

FACT: It's not leaving the B&O Museum as anything other than washing machine sized pieces or a dumpster full of rusty bits

FACT: Even if by some twist of fate it WOULD leave the B&O, it'll never EVER run again.

FACT: There are a TON of people in the preservation and railfan communities who say "You Should" or "They Should" but pitiful few who say "I'm going to" and mean it.

So....

Moderators, please put this baby to bed. Permanantly.

No reason to lock the thread. The story is interesting, the GG1 is unique in the story she represents. It's a shame she's been allowed to disintegrate such as she has, but there is nothing to say that someone or some group won't take pity on her and reinforce the structure. Frankly, I think she's too far gone, but mine is only one voice in the room.

STOP LOCKING THREADS as a way of controlling content.

I'm sorry this is a burr in your saddle Mr. Swinnerton, but silencing others is never an answer to your problems, least not here in America. Stop coming off as a censor, it doesn't flatter you. Hot Metal is right, if you don't want to read it, don't read it.

That said, it does seem to me this thread is exactly what the railfanning forum was made for.

For the record:

There is at least one serious effort being expended to get 4876 out of the B&O Museum for eventual intact display. Certain "ducks have to be taught to waddle" in a particular order in a particular row first. Don't send money; don't write letters of support; don't make counter-offers; don't say "it'll never happen." If it happens, it happens; if it fails, at least we gave it the best realistic shot possible (in my opinion).

Therefore, I must refute the so-called "fact" to the contrary expressed by Brother Swinnerton.

Here is a theory: These "we have to save the 4876 (8888)" threads on RYPN or other rail sites are not going to make a difference on whether or not these artifacts are "saved". Only in cases where a museum or a group can reach out into the general public and raise funds/support do these kind of things succeed.

So what if every few months the 4876 debate stirs up again. It shows that there still is a great deal of interest in this locomotive. Isn't this what forums such as RYPN are all about? If Tim Stuy is correct then what purposes does this forum serve at all? None of the threads on this forum since day one has "reached out to the general public to obtain funds/support" since this site is pretty much read only by those in the preservation industry. So talking about anything here is a waste of time according to Tim.

In the US we are accustomed to the ability to speak our minds, and that is the main reason why locking of threads and Mr. Swinnerton in particular ruffles my feathers so much. Why the hostility toward others and their ideas? With huge scandals brewing in Washington over the very unAmerican concept of silencing contrary ideas and positions, it is BS to see the same thing developing over here.

I have no interest in suppressing anyone's topics or conversations here. My point is that after all this time this topic has not caused any change, positive or negative to the status of 4876. This is also true for a certain K4 that shall not be named. On the other hand efforts by the R&GV folks to save a Lehigh Valley caboose or the North Judson group to save a tower both generated a lot of support and apparently money by discussions here. Perhaps the better question is what draws people to these projects but 4876 and others don't?

We're going to have to wait a while to find out...........

.... but IF 4876 is eventually saved in a manner being proposed by certain parties, it will indeed have been instigated by discussions that stemmed from RyPN "Interchange" discussion threads.

So...... don't be hatin', y'all.......

I see no reason to lock the thread, or to move it to Railfanning. Useful discussion seems to be happening, it does appear to be preservation related, and thus far it has met the civility guidelines.

Have a happy discussion.

First off, I'm not a fan of censorship, which is why I abdicate a lock instead of a delete. Big difference.

Secondly, I'll stand by my ideas that:

Curatorially, there is no reason for the 4876 to continue to exist other than it would probably cost as much to scrap a it's worth and I doubt that the B&O Museum wants to be known as the people who scrapped a GG1. (Although the foamer hate-mail would boost the post office's bottom line)

Financially, I think it would be irresponsible use of funds to put any money into such a frivolous project unless it was specifically a 'Save the 4876' group. There are plenty of GG1s saved already that can tell the story of the G better an for less money, money that can then be used to save or restore something else that may be a one off or in danger of extinction.

From a donor standpoint, I would not donate time nor money to any group that decided to take on such a project because of the two above points. A G that was in better shape? Sure! The 4800 (as it is unique) yep! The '76 just because it happened to make the news? Nah.

As to RyPN's position in all this, the ONLY reason I keep up with RyPN is that when you rinse away the foam, there is a lot of useful info here. Wanna know about left handed Belpaire boiler ratchet locks? Someone here will know. Want to know what happened to that old slumbercoach that used to sit behind 'ol Merle's general store? This is the place to ask. Keeping up with your favorite group here. Excellent. However the constant re-hashing of 4876 (and its proposed reincarnations), the old 'The British rebuilt an A1, lets build a PRR T1 from scratch' and pretty much anything about F40s really ruins the signal to noise ratio.

I suppose my major burr stems from the fact that there are a lot of 'doers' on this site (people who are out making it happen) but for every doer, there's 5 'you should'ers. If the 'you should' crowd wants to see something (say, the 4876) saved and believe its that important, sign on with a relevant group (or start a new one) and DO SOMETHING. Raise money, build a following, come up with a plan and DO IT. Don't just talk about what someone else should do. Do it yourself. Until then, it's all just beating the dead horse.

Russ

PS- Brother Mitchell, if it happens, I'll buy you a case of your favorite adult beverage, but as I've said before, I'll believe it when I see verifiable irrefutable progress.

The B&O Museum already "deaccessioned" a PRR GG1 that was purchased locally and given to them by local fans in the early 1980s to keep a GG1 somewhere at least close to the Northeast Corridor--PRR 4890, now at Green Bay. There are still a few folks around here that won't give the B&O Museum the time of day over that snafu. So, in a sense, "that ship has already sailed."



Both are in a sense "unique," just in different ways. Rephrased: the '76 because it was in a wreck, was disassembled, and then rebuilt and served again for nearly three decades? Wow, cool! The 4800, just because it has rivets? "BO-O-O-Ring!!!", to quote Homer Simpson. Average folk are, admittedly, more likely to react that way than listen to some PRR dork drone on about the development of the welded skin, Loewy, GE versus Altoona, etc.



[quickly and quietly declares his "favorite adult beverage" to be Glenfiddich 40 Year Old.....]