Don Wood's favorite engine, Central RR of New Jersey 4-6-0 774, eight days before it was scrapped in March 1956. Anyone know the details of why the attempt to save it failed?

http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?o ... elback.jpg

Hi Bob,

That's a question you don't want to ask down here in these parts of Joisey. In nutshell, the reason I have been told by those involved was resources... same story for the guys who tried to save a Reading 4-6-2 around the same time.

Some of Don's friends still cringe at the question, and I get the feeling the emotions of hope and loss are still as fresh now as they were 50 years ago.

Her headlight survived, and was displayed at the model railroad club in Elberon, NJ's depot. When the station burned, the headlight was recovered along with other railroadiana hardware the club had. I am not sure where it is today, though I know I heard it mentioned not too long ago.

The CNJ was not a road prone to honor itself. The donations to the B&O museum were an anomoly. One could argue that indeed #1000 was the most significant piece the CNJ ever owned, so ast least they got that right. The selection of the #592 4-4-2 was not a bad choice, either.

They let the Baldwin double-ender go to scrap in the late 60's, but by then the CNJ was a failed company.

Fact is, of the anthracite roads, the companies did very little preservation... unlike the PRR. The LV did none. The CNJ just did the Baltimore donations... I have never heard of any effort to donate engines to town parks, and they certainly weren't going to give #774 away. The Erie did none. The DL&W tried the park engine thing in Scranton and were rebuffed. Even the Reading didn't do much on their own, other than keep the 4 T-1's around... and even then, 2 went to a scrapper.

Whatever possed the Frisco, Santa Fe, CB&Q et al to distribute locos along the route, the anthracite roads never had that bug.

Too bad.

Rob Davis[/quote]

As I recall reading about it years ago, the Central, as ever, was short on money and the fans didn't have the cash on the spot. Adding insult to injury, New Jersey taxed the CNJ on the value of 774 so they couldn't even afford to hold the engine for the fans to raise the $$$.

Don covered it in a seven-page article in the October 1971 TRAINS.

CNJ allowed the group trying to save 774 to operate excursions to raise funds to pay the scrap value ($5,500) for the locomotive. Two operated, several were cancelled for lack of ticket sales; one of the two actually ran at a loss.

After more than a year, time ran out.

JAC

One story about why the CNJ temporarily spun off their Penna. lines to the Central RR of Pennsylvania was to have them buy the double-end Diesels, etc., and avoid the N.J. tax! It eventually didn't work.

Actually CRP was formed to get the Penna. Division out of NJ taxes; it didn't work. Those passenger Baldwins I believe were carried as Wharton and Northern engines - a solvent CNJ subsidiary at the end of the High Bridge Branch near Dover NJ.

I think it would be fair to say that New Jersey's taxation of railroads was what destroyed many of the Conrail predecessors. Hudson County in particular had an organized crime mentality when it came to taxing the railroads, at least one mayor or Jersey City in the 1960's likened it to "protection money". The EL paid prepostorous taxes on their passenger facilities in Hoboken that were required for money-losing commuter trains that the same taxing powers refused to allow to be discontinued.

This is pure assumption on my part, but I had always assumed that B&O essentially "ordered" those donations using its leverage as CNJ's controlling stockholder (via Reading I beleive). The call went out to controlled anchracite railroads to cough up "historical good stuff" and that's what CNJ came up with to get Baltimore off their back.

Again, pure speculation on my part.

I've always wondered about that. CNJ retired their 4-4-2's in 1948, yet kept 592 around despite NJ taxes. 592 was partially parted out to keep the 4-6-0's running, but got put back together for the B&O Museum.

592 had started out with 85" drivers as a Royal Blue Line engine (and with a different number) and is a classic example of the 1895-1905 high wheeled camelbacks that revolutionised Eastern railroading. Thus it would belong in B&O's collection because of its original use on JCT-WAS trains.

I've always wondered if B&O had traded some debt CNJ owed B&O but was unlikely to pay for the 592 and 1000. Remember CNJ was emerging from bankruptcy in 1948 when 592 was retired from service. Perhaps writing off an account payable was worth two old engines and possibly the old CNJ cars B&O museum has (two of which were in the roof collapse).

As I recall, CNJ's donations of the 592 and 1000 to the B&O Museum were made at the personal request of Howard Simpson, its then-president. Simpson was a former CNJ man (responsible for the Blue Comet, among other things) and was a protege of Roy White, who had been CNJ's president before moving to the B&O when Daniel Willard finally retired in 1941. White made Simpson president when he retired, and moved up to be chairman of both B&O and CNJ. So there were close personal contacts with the CNJ, and I think these were the primary factor rather than anything else.

What motivated Simpson to request the donations is another question, but I suspect Larry Sagle was whispering in his ear.

Ahh, a more benign explanation than mine, and one that has a strong ring of truth. I hadn't realized so may post-Willard B&O executives had been groomed on CNJ, or that the personal ties among the executives were so close and interlocking.

It's worth remembering that though the B&O prided itself on its relics, it had a bit of a corporate blind spot for its 20th century heritage. It didn't do park engine donations either, and the tiny bit of 20C steam that was saved was due more to the good offices of outsiders like Mr. Striegel than the B&O itself. Not really so terribly different from the anthracite roads in a way.

I say this not meaning to take anything away from the marvellous B&O collection, but it is interesting to closely examine what the B&O saved and what it didn't--what we collect says a lot about our values and preconceptions, whether it is individuals or organizations doing the collecting.

I was under the impression that even much of the marvelous B & O collection was saved by accident and circumstance rather than a preservation policy by the railroad. From my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, the B&O by the late 19th century was literally a working antique museum in terms of equipment. By the time it became fashionable to restore old locomotives and equipment for exhibitions, the B & O had to simply look around its own property. I thought that by the time of the Columbian Exposition of 1892 the B&O was still using a few grashoppers as shop switchers.

Granted, their efforts at keeping the collection intact and preserved all of those years is impressive as well. Like Erik, I wished they would have saved more from the 20th century.

It's quite true that B&O's executive management in the 1940s and '50s had little interest in preserving the railroad's 20th century artifacts. But to be fair, few other railroads did either. They were too busy coping with the postwar competitive and economic challenges, and in any event were anxious to project a "modern" image.

Much of the credit for saving the B&O's 20th century locomotives at the museum (e.g., diesel 51, steam 5300 and 4500) should go to Larry Sagle (Lawrence W. Sagle, that is). Sagle was chief railfan in B&O's PR department, which was fairly well stocked with other fans and semi-fans. He was responsible for setting up the museum in 1953 and later gathering in what equipment he could manage to persuade the higher-ups to save. Bill Schmidt, Sagle's boss in the later '50s, was also a foaming fan and helped support him. Fortunately the climate at the time was reasonably favorable, although Sagle failed in trying to get an EM-1 for the collection.

When the C&O moved in in 1963, Howard Skidmore, C&O's PR head, saw the museum as a good PR tool and helped bring in the C&O's modern steam power.

And a more deliciously diverse collection of regional locomotives would be difficult to find. Aside from the antiques in the collection, going back to Wm.Mason and before, I find it amazing that C&O saved so much power from it's late steam era. Apparently some was just an afterthought, and thank God for Mr. Streigel. Still, as far as eastern roads go , C&O managed to represent itself quite well as a postumus statement for steam.

Now,if I'm not being too forward, how about having CSX renew that lovely Greenbriar and make it an eastcoast sister to the Union Pacific's steam fleet? I'm sure that UP gets more than mere publicity from operating and maintaining two large locomotives.

Hi friends,

Some notes on Phil's post...



According to Bob Fischer's excellent new CNJ steam book, #592 did indeed hang out as a hulk in E'port. According to the book, it was the oldest engine on the property, and thus was selected. She wears the cab from 4-6-0 #750.




This is not correct according to her builders' photo. The 590's were delievered in that number class. While they were not renumbered, they were reclassed in 1945 from P-6 to A-28.

Fischer also shows them as having 79" drivers, tied for the largest on the CNJ. Although comparing builders photos to the engine, it looks like the driver diameter may have been reduced when she was somehwat modernized.

These engines were equipped to roam the CNJ, but all data I have seen shows her to have been built with Atlantic City service in mind. Indeed, that is the run where they made their names in later years as back-up to the Blue Comet's Pacifics.

Rob Davis