Oops! I had corrected my spelling, but posted the uncorrected one. Sorry about that, but I think you can figure out what I was trying to get across.

SACarlso@scj.com

Right you are Gary, but again consider the adverse impact that Operation Lifesaver brings to the table by virtue of its focus on grade crossing safety - it is a program about grade crossing wrecks.

Not saying it isn't important and it shouldn't be done, but it does provide the public with the impression that the industry is a dangerous place and that you should try to avoid interacting with it or you will get hurt.

We need a program that says "This is what built your nation, this is what united real estate into a nation, this is what made the creation of the industries you work for economically feasable, this is what brings the power to the power plant that makes your microwave run, this is what allowed us to become a superpower and win two world wars, and this is what these people do who are your neighbors and bring everything you use and touch to your door. Here's how this big heavy stuff moving on tracks affects your life and makes it better.

In other words, we should educate the public through fun and entertaining interaction with the railroads about the vital and seldom appreciated role they play in everybody's life from a perspective that does not focus on how you can get killed by them.

Wouldn't hurt to also include something about the economic superiority to highway freight transportation costs and how the RoadRailer program, if enacted for all trucking over 200 miles, could substantially reduce maintenence costs for the highways we have already built as well as save us building more highway lanes in the future.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> Not trying to beat an iron horse to death
> with this, but what was it that turned
> Norfolk-Southern sour on steam operations?

This, from someone REALLY close to the source:

First let me disagree with Sandy about the Dismal Swamp accident, save that it was the genesis of the 40mph rule (which,by the way, was honored more in the breach than in fact - 50mph was more like it). Eight years is a long time.

Although, to be sure, one of the reasons came along about that time. Simply put, Jim Bistline retired and Carl Jensen took the position. That's not a slam at Carl - but he did not have the connections, the respect, the clubby aura of Jim Bistline. Jim was comfortable anywhere - I have a hard time envisioning Carl as being comfortable in a contentious board room discussion of the program, much less carrying the day.

Another reason can be traced back to the Seventies, when Graham Claytor retired. The Southern Railway program, which had tried very hard to link excursion dates with local celebrations of one sort or another, became an "excursion program," run as, for lack of a better term, a product wholesaled to NRHS chapters. Needless to say such a product could not be profitable. The locomotives were never used on shipper specials or employee specials, which led to the disconnect with the employee base. (One rule of the program was that the train had to be escorted by a local operating manager, i.e. Road Foreman. That led to a lot of overwork in a thinly-spread group of employees.)

And in an effort to make the program self-supporting in the short run (Goode's predecessor, whose name escapes me now, removed all subsidy for the program), Jensen was forced to operate more trips to spread out the fixed costs, which drove up long-term maintenance costs (more frequent overhauls).

In 1992 Carl got $1 Million for the "renovation" of the NS-owned cars, and required groups who leased their cars to NS to paint them in Tuscan Red. Implicit in this money was a "don't bother us for a while" promise. That led to the delays on 1218's overhaul (and you do NOT want to know how much that thing cost to operate per mile).

The final one-two-three punch was the death of Bob Claytor in early 1994, the September 1994 switching incident in Lynchburg mentioned by Sandy, and the expiration of 611's boiler certification in January 1995. Repairing the cars and overhauling 611 was going to be another Million or two - into a program that couldn't support itself, wasn't loved by the employees, didn't add to the company image, etc.

I would have made the same decision Goode made, for the record. But then, I never would have let it drift into that situation in the first place. Had I run the program, I would have tightly integrated it into the corporate relations program, operated only occasionally, let the NRHS chapters fund themselves in another way. We might still have 4501 and 611 running if Jim Bistline were younger and Bob Fort (VP-PR) had had a better opinion of the program's potential.

JAC

> Dave and Gary,

You are both right in my opinion, but I think there is a program already in place that isn't part of the actual railraods, but is supposed to promote the history of them. It's called the NRHS. This is something that museums try to do, but often fail at. I'm not saying that all of them do, though. I think PR is always a good investment in a companies future, even if it does cost some money to do it. Why not submit a business proposal to NS to revitalize the steam program and carry some of the cost to run it? Volunteers have rebuilt many a locomotive including a group of college students. Just a thought.

My Project
gnufe@apex.net

> This, from someone REALLY close to the
> source:

> Although, to be sure, one of the reasons
> came along about that time. Simply put, Jim
> Bistline retired and Carl Jensen took the
> position. That's not a slam at Carl - but he
> did not have the connections, the respect,
> the clubby aura of Jim Bistline. Jim was
> comfortable anywhere - I have a hard time
> envisioning Carl as being comfortable in a
> contentious board room discussion of the
> program, much less carrying the day.

Agreed... Carl, although personable on a more personal level, is no walk-on-water Bistline, neither is he a former Executive VP nor a major stockholder...

> Another reason can be traced back to the
> Seventies, when Graham Claytor retired. The
> Southern Railway program, which had tried
> very hard to link excursion dates with local
> celebrations of one sort or another, became
> an "excursion program," run as,
> for lack of a better term, a product
> wholesaled to NRHS chapters. Needless to say
> such a product could not be profitable. The
> locomotives were never used on shipper
> specials or employee specials, which led to
> the disconnect with the employee base. (One
> rule of the program was that the train had
> to be escorted by a local operating manager,
> i.e. Road Foreman. That led to a lot of
> overwork in a thinly-spread group of
> employees.)

Agreed. But the program did generate a net profit for the corporation. I have a figure in mind from as reliable a source as you can get. There certainly were not many employees endeared to the program as you have said for the reasons you have said...

> And in an effort to make the program
> self-supporting in the short run (Goode's
> predecessor, whose name escapes me now,
> removed all subsidy for the program), Jensen
> was forced to operate more trips to spread
> out the fixed costs, which drove up
> long-term maintenance costs (more frequent
> overhauls).

McKinnon, the last decent man to hold the office of president of the former Southern Railway. With roller-bearing engines running maybe 30,000 miles per year, the frequency of overhauls was not greatly affected. As the program lasted longer, initial short term fixes did eventually have to be dealt with, however.

> In 1992 Carl got $1 Million for the
> "renovation" of the NS-owned cars,
> and required groups who leased their cars to
> NS to paint them in Tuscan Red. Implicit in
> this money was a "don't bother us for a
> while" promise. That led to the delays
> on 1218's overhaul (and you do NOT want to
> know how much that thing cost to operate per
> mile).

The 611 was due for varying amounts of work during successive winters following 1218's exit from service in 1991, but less than the A, so it was the priority. Doug Karhan's staff spent a great deal of time on the road in the summer (the shop and operations guys were largely the same ones, contracted by Steam Operations in later years)

> The final one-two-three punch was the death
> of Bob Claytor in early 1994, the September
> 1994 switching incident in Lynchburg
> mentioned by Sandy, and the expiration of
> 611's boiler certification in January 1995.
> Repairing the cars and overhauling 611 was
> going to be another Million or two - into a
> program that couldn't support itself, wasn't
> loved by the employees, didn't add to the
> company image, etc.

The Lynchburg wreck certainly helped the right (or, more correctly, wrong) person get the ear of more than Goode at the top, and get the d****d lawyers stirred up. The cars weren't immediate priorities, and the 611's tubes, flues, units and engine truck overhaul would have cost perhaps half that, but patching up the two wrecked (most severe) coaches would have run maybe $250K-$400K for NS (big corporations generally pay more for most services).

> I would have made the same decision Goode
> made, for the record.

Now John, we KNOW better. A true "dyed-in-the-wool railfan" such as yourself would never let that happen.

> But then, I never would have let it drift into > that situation in the first place. Had I run
> the program, I
> would have tightly integrated it into the
> corporate relations program, operated only
> occasionally, let the NRHS chapters fund
> themselves in another way.

And who will fund your coaches needs?

We might still
> have 4501 and 611 running if Jim Bistline
> were younger and Bob Fort (VP-PR) had had a
> better opinion of the program's potential.

...if little Napolean had decided not to agree with Mrs. Goode's ideas about redecorating the office cars back about six years earlier...
I hear he's dropped out of favor since that little clash of taste with the boss's wife.

> JAC

Not that anything you said was incorrect per say, but the desire to eliminate and one-up Carl Jensen was the primary reason and inescapable fact, and that is nothing against Carl by me, it is just the way it was. There were a number of reasons that this hatchet man with little-big man syndrome stated in his case to the hierarchy at Three Commercial Place, but that was the one thing he had on his mind, period.

Again, someone STILL close to the source.