I've been following the entire tourist railway/museum thread with interest.

When not pushing bits for RyPN I volunteer as a brakeman with a pretty unashamed tourist road, the Walkersville Southern near Frederick, MD. We operate on Saturdays and Sundays, hauling patrons in a dog's breakfast of a consist which comprises a former B&O tool car (now our open bench car), a WM troop sleeper converted to a coach, and a very handsome steel Wabash caboose. Power is a pair of critters, one Davenport and one Plymouth.

Is our consist historic? No siree. Is it an accurate recreation of a branchline trian experience? In no way. Do we have Civil War days with trian attacks? Indeed, we do. Also circus days with face painting and so forth.

We are selling entertainment, not history--a train ride, not an historical experience. However, the money we raise by offering this entertainment has allowed us to place back in service 5 miles of the former PRR Frederick Secondary, after it had been embargoed and abandoned for nearly 20 years. We have also gained enough credibility to persuade the State or Maryland to rebuild our high bridge over the Monocacy River, a bridge which had been lost all the way back during Hurricane Agnes in the 1970s. We have restored the Walkersville station and freight house to pristine condition. And we are pretty good about distinguising between our use equipment, which is lettered for our road, and our preserved treasures (that Wabash caboose) which are letter for their parent road and maintained in as close to original condition as possible. We also have a nice opportunity for our car hosts to explain to our guests the historic role of our line in the development of the region.

So are we preservation? I dunno. I guess it depends on how you look at it. You might say we are guys playing with trains, offering an entertaining local diversion, but applying the revenue to real preservation work: not on the rolling stock, but on the track, infrastructure, and ROW of the old Frederick Secondary. We are organized as a for-profit company, so we duck that bullet.

I leave it up to you to judge, but I know I enjoy working there and feel OK about what we do.

eledbetter@mail.rypn.org

I've always felt that the PRIMARY mission of most tourist railroads / scenic railways is to entertain the public. A near by attraction to visit on Sunday afternoon or perhaps one of several "destination" attractions to visit on a vacation. Pure and simple... just plain fun. Educating the public on railroad history is more of a secondary mission, if at all. Bottom line... please don't get upset if their former DL&W Boonton coach isn't dark green with "Lackawanna" on the letterboards.

A TRUE railroad museum (not a purely-entertainment tourist railroad calling itself a museum) has the public education of railroad history as its primary mission. Hopefully they can blend some entertainment and fun into the picture to keep the average non-railfan visitor from becoming bored to death. Bottom line... it's ok to be upset if their former DL&W Boonton coach is painted tuscan red with "Pennsylvania" on the letterboards.

Now for a different take on railroad history concerning tourist railroads.

Many of today's tourist railroads are 30 to 40 years old and they themselves are taking (or IMHO should be taking) their rightful place in railroad history. For example, Delaware's Wilmington & Western Railroad deserves its place in history right alongside any other railroad company. Their Boonton cars aren't green, they're blue. In not too many years from now, they will have been dressed longer in W&W blue than in DL&W green. REMEMBER ANY TIME PASSED IS HISTORY. Another example... The Black River & Western Railroad's 1937 Alco 2-8-0 #60 has spent far longer time hauling tourists in New Jersey than in "real service" hauling freight on the Great Western Railway in Colorado. Even Stone Mountain, Tweetsie, et al with their holdups and indian raids have deserved their place in history and should be enjoyed for what they are... just plain fun. Besides, a steam locomotive is still a pretty impressive machine even wearing gaudy paint with a fake stack and headlight.

Regards,
Jim Robinson

Can we all agree for one and for all that there is no shame, and perhaps a lot to brag about, in being a quality tourist railroad that provides a fun and friendly introduction into railroading to the general public?

I am sorry to see a thread of apologies forming here where none should be required.

Somebody wants to write a posting about how they work for a bad tourist railroad that provides a lousy customer experience, will gladly accept apologies. Otherwise, be proud of your vital function whether or not preservation is an expressed goal of your organization.

I spent several years running West Side Shays up Colorado mountains pulling passengers in rebuilt D&RG / C&S freight cars and learned more practical railroading keeping an intensively operated tourist operation going under those conditions than in years of slow, methodical museum work. I am proud of the work I did which kept some stuff running that might otherwise have been stuffed and mounted, and while we were all railroad history fans, we were running a railroad for tourists experience.

One of my proudest days was rescuing the broke down diesel train with a Shay on the one day diesels were scheduled, thus proving steams superiority once and for all.

Not easy to do these things in a museum setting.

Dave

lathro19@idt.net

Maybe what would satisfy this discussion would be a web page somewhere where people can review railroad museums and tourist lines much like they can vote on roller coasters on other pages. Evaluations can then be separated from "experience" "fun" "historical or authentic" and maybe some other categories.

It seems to me that since this discussion started,that there are really two forms of railway preservation. They are the Museum and the Tourist Railroad. It is also easy to see that the two are able to co-exist within each other.
The tourist railroad can offer entertaining,profitable train rides,and include a historically acurate consist or/plus a museum for history buffs.
The museum can offer historically acurate information with displays of certain subjects(in this case railroadings past),and offer train rides.
The two go hand in hand.
The first place I can think of that shows this relationship is Strasburg PA. For those of you who have not visited Strasburg yet, The two subjects here,tourist railroad and museum are literally neighbors. On one side of route 741 is the Strasburg Railroad.On the other side is the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. They are both five star attractions. Each has it's own agenda,but also has the same goal.They both earn money by selling railroad history, either by pulling trains or exhibiting historically acurate displays. Fortunatly for us all, railroads are good at earning funds in both respects.
I think the question here is the purity of todays railroad preservation environment. I think it is a personal view that each of us has. Pure is "unchanged" to some,while pure is "all fixed up nice and running" to others.
A train ride is only a train ride to most people. It's the little things that are worked on,that gives the average patron the feeling of history around them.This is why tourist railroads are making it today. It could be as big as a steam locomotive or as small as a conductors timepiece. People expect to see old things working,they don't nessisarily need to know that it's not accurate even if it is.
Also,visitors to a historical society will get only a sense of the past from photos, but with accurate displays, they can see and touch the past up close.
Both forms of historic railroad interpritation are correct and acceptable. We'd all like to lean towards purity. Our trade may not nessisarily demand it,but we are leaning aren't we?
Learning anyway I hope.Each day I know I am.


btamper@hotmail.com

Having been around these iron horses now for 20 years and now promoted to Road Foreman of Engines at TVRM, I have to say that anyone engaged in the operation and maintaining of a steam locomotive anywhere should be proud of what they are doing. Not everyone may have the same goal or the same purpose but the end result is the same. These monsters don't run on a whim. It takes countless hours of blood, sweat, and tears. It also takes one other thing:

I recall some lines from the film "The Right Stuff" in which the Mercury Astronauts are trying to convince Von Braun's team of engineers about some changes they want made to the spacecraft. One of the star voyagers asks "You know what makes this thing go up?" As the engineer is about to answer with all the aeronautical stuff, one of the other astronauts answers with "Funding makes this bird go up". "No bucks, no Buck Rogers". No money, no steamy.

To keep the fires burning, we must keep the funds flowing. And if it takes painting the 4501 red and stenciling it with a Coca-Cola wave to keep her running, museum or not, the offer would have to have serious consideration. I hope it never comes to that but you never know.

Let me finish by asking, what is our objective? Paul Merriman once said that putting a locomotive on display was like propping up a corpse. I live by that statement. Just like him, steam isn't steam unless you are boiling water. The beauty and power of a steam locomotive can not be imagined. And it can not understood or fully comprehended by just staring at cold piece of iron. Put her in front of 8 passenger cars rolling at 50 per alongside a highway, then you can educate someone about what steam locomotives were all about. And to me, whether it's a museum, short line, tourist line or what, if that's what they're doing, then I am behind them 100%. Even if they have altered the appearance or changed its color. Otherwise, it might still be sitting in a park slowly decomposing just like that corpse.

How many of y'all are going to ride behind the 700? I'll be there!

G. Mark Ray, TVRM

aw90h@cs.com

> Having been around these iron horses now for
> 20 years and now promoted to Road Foreman of
> Engines at TVRM, I have to say that anyone
> engaged in the operation and maintaining of
> a steam locomotive anywhere should be proud
> of what they are doing. Not everyone may
> have the same goal or the same purpose but
> the end result is the same. These monsters
> don't run on a whim. It takes countless
> hours of blood, sweat, and tears. It also
> takes one other thing:

> I recall some lines from the film "The
> Right Stuff" in which the Mercury
> Astronauts are trying to convince Von
> Braun's team of engineers about some changes
> they want made to the spacecraft. One of the
> star voyagers asks "You know what makes
> this thing go up?" As the engineer is
> about to answer with all the aeronautical
> stuff, one of the other astronauts answers
> with "Funding makes this bird go
> up". "No bucks, no Buck
> Rogers". No money, no steamy.

> To keep the fires burning, we must keep the
> funds flowing. And if it takes painting the
> 4501 red and stenciling it with a Coca-Cola
> wave to keep her running, museum or not, the
> offer would have to have serious
> consideration. I hope it never comes to that
> but you never know.

> Let me finish by asking, what is our
> objective? Paul Merriman once said that
> putting a locomotive on display was like
> propping up a corpse. I live by that
> statement. Just like him, steam isn't steam
> unless you are boiling water. The beauty and
> power of a steam locomotive can not be
> imagined. And it can not understood or fully
> comprehended by just staring at cold piece
> of iron. Put her in front of 8 passenger
> cars rolling at 50 per alongside a highway,
> then you can educate someone about what
> steam locomotives were all about. And to me,
> whether it's a museum, short line, tourist
> line or what, if that's what they're doing,
> then I am behind them 100%. Even if they
> have altered the appearance or changed its
> color. Otherwise, it might still be sitting
> in a park slowly decomposing just like that
> corpse.

> How many of y'all are going to ride behind
> the 700? I'll be there!

> G. Mark Ray, TVRM
Mark, I agree with you. A steam locomotive on display does not tell the whole story. Almost all senses, not just the visual, are employed when a locomotive passes under steam. This machine is alive! This doesn't occure with a "stuffed and mounted" display.

ironbartom@aol.com

I am not sure I can agree with you Jim. Let me explain my thoughts.

> Many of today's tourist railroads are 30 to
> 40 years old and they themselves are taking
> (or IMHO should be taking) their rightful
> place in railroad history. For example,
> Delaware's Wilmington & Western Railroad
> deserves its place in history right
> alongside any other railroad company. Their
> Boonton cars aren't green, they're blue. In
> not too many years from now, they will have
> been dressed longer in W&W blue than in
> DL&W green. REMEMBER ANY TIME PASSED IS
> HISTORY.

The Question becomes Whose history are we preserving? In fact the Wilmington & Western is a non-profit operating as a 501 (c) 3 as an educational entity. Any time past is history, but is it significant history worthing of public funding? Remember even if your state doesn't write you a check, your non-profit status keeps you from getting a bill from the state! The Wilmington & Western is also on the National Register of Historic places, I think they have more of a duty than to simply give train rides. As a preservationist involved in historic structures primarily, I would be quite upset if a group like this received grant money that might have gone to other applicants who take their project seriously.

Another example... The Black River
> & Western Railroad's 1937 Alco 2-8-0 #60
> has spent far longer time hauling tourists
> in New Jersey than in "real
> service" hauling freight on the Great
> Western Railway in Colorado. Even Stone
> Mountain, Tweetsie, et al with their holdups
> and indian raids have deserved their place
> in history and should be enjoyed for what
> they are... just plain fun. Besides, a steam
> locomotive is still a pretty impressive
> machine even wearing gaudy paint with a fake
> stack and headlight.

This brings up the next piece which is, private property can be run as the owner(s) wish. The E-unit story we've seen has already hashed that over. Fun is fun, no problem with that on the surface, but, for sake of argument, lets say that TEA-21 money was awarded to the #60 from the limited funds New Jersey receives in that program. Due to that award a historic station, bridge, or other qualifying project with true New Jersey roots were denied. Just because #60 is a steam engine that has now "run" in New Jersey for many years does not make it eligible for National Register status. It is a Colorado engine and was no doubt built for specific conditions of that railroad. I have noticed over the years that many "steam blooded" people (please no offense intended) have the ability to overlook preservation as long as the gauge shows pressure. Steam engines may be a symbol of Railway Preservation, but they are not the only story to be told. Do I like steam engines you may ask, yes but I wouldn't sacrifice everything an organization has simply to have one run. So to follow this logic we would say that SIX FLAGS is a preservation organization because they run steam engines (perhaps CEDAR POINT in Ohio is a better choice as these are really old machines) a bit absurd don't you think? Do they work hard to keep them running, certainly, but again motivation is the big key to preservation.

Some years ago I received a solicitation from a group in my area who were trying to raise funds to restore an Alabama logging engine for their group's use. The people there are had the same rational, "it is a steam engine so it is historic, they don't make them anymore!" I didn't argue and I gave them a small check for their boiler fund, I will say that I gave a larger chunk of money when NKP 587 needed firebox work as it has more meaning to this area.

John Hankey wrote some excellent articles on this topic, does anyone know where he went? Hopefully a curator somewhere.

jkissinger@hotmail.com

I tend to agree with James - certainly old doesn't equal historic, which can only be defined as such within a defined context such as a district or mission statement, but we shouldn't restrict it geographically IMHO. Why can't a museum in Indiana interpret the Alabama Logging Railroads if that is an expressed goal?

If it were me, i would do it in Alabama where all the snow wouldn't confuse visitors in the winter months, but that is a personal prejudice.

Maybe if the Indianans built a large climate controlled dome and replicated Alabama inside it first? But do we need more Alabama? And, at what cost?

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Why can't a museum in Indiana
> interpret the Alabama Logging Railroads if
> that is an expressed goal?

Dave,

The question is not whether or not they can, but who will fund it. My point is that foundations in Indiana that are available to fund these types of things simply won't find it important to replicate an Alabama logging railroad, and why would they? At the Indianapolis zoo they have replicated a section of desert for a group of appropriate animals, the contcept has been done before, but for specific reasons. Railroad museums tend to be regional in character, to theoretically tell the story that area people (the public, remember) can relate to. I think this is part of the reason why railroad museums don't garner the same level of support and respect as other historic preservation venues as they often fall short in this regard.

As far as geography being important, check with the big players to see what they do. Not too many Santa Fe pieces in the Pennsylvania RR Museum building or pieces of the Central at Orange Empire! If they had them, I doubt they would be high on the permanent collections list. Sometimes having a piece from a "home road" will be eligible for a State Preservation office to nominate for the Register, when a similar non-geographic piece would not, regardless of condition.

jkissinger@hotmail.com

My point, James, is that in this tourist railroad related thread that isn't the issue at all.

Funding for commercial ventures such as tourist railroads comes from either the private sector as venture capial or from the public sector as a means of economic development rather than historic preservation.

CATS for example - a lot like the D&RG in the 1940's but not a historic program, operated for economic development in a ragged patch of desert with not much else to exploit for earning a living. Without the need of both states to have some economy there, the line would not have been saved for historic reasons only, and D&SNGRR would have some spare engines.

So, if Joe Promoter thinks Alabama Logging World and Train Ride Theme Park is the way to make millions in Terre Haute, he will raise the funds to build his dream (or not) and might inadvertently preserve some rusty iron in the process. Not one dollar will have ben removed from HP in the process.

Dave

lathro19@idt.net

Count me in, I just bought my plane ticket yesterday. Should be a great trip!

> How many of y'all are going to ride behind
> the 700? I'll be there!

> G. Mark Ray, TVRM


Surviving Steam Photo Archive
rjenkins@railfan.net