See this Interchange post: I think the photos of 587 at Frankfort (in the first link) were taken in 1991.

http://rypn.sunserver.com/forum/viewtop ... roundhouse

No doubt the buildings have deteriorated since then. Relaying rail is not cheap, but not impossible either; our RR has miles of usable scrap rail laying beside the tracks and NS probably does also; a donation is not unthinkable. Asbestos and in-ground pollution aren't really a consideration for saving or destroying the buildings - they have to be removed either way. Whatever happens, it will take local interest to save the facility. An authentic railroad roundhouse, if developed as a genuine historic site and not a junkyard where middle-aged adolescents play on old trains, should be a good reason to visit Frankfort, increasing local revenues. Steamtown has its faults, but it hasn't hurt Scranton's tourist economy.

Lacking that local interest, the buildings will probably fall. A big backhoe could remove them in a week or so. What concerns me most is that so few of us in the preservation community seem to care.

Fred:

I think the Erie switching tower currently owned by the IHB that they are talking about is Hohman Tower. This is a brick interlocking tower not to far from where I believe the swing bridge you are talking about is located. At least if its the bridge I am thinking of. It IS an old bridge and interesting. The south end was connected to live track and I once saw an IHB diesel switcher using the brige deck as a tail track. The north end is connected to nothing and sits up in the air off of the ground. The distance from the tower to the bridge might be about 1/2 mile, but the 624 is located farther away. If the tower and the 2-8-2 ARE moved to this site, and even though it is a park, I don't see much in the way of visitation. In fact, I think that the locomotive and tower might be in an area more prone to vandalism than where the Mikado currently sits. Perhaps I am wrong on that. I would hope so.

As for the "sale" of NKP 624, I don't recall a sale. I believe it was a trade; a diesel for the 2-8-2 with the diesel to end up with the tower and the bridge in the park. I'm not sure what happened to the trade. The person making it is an occassional poster here on RyPN and perhaps he can tell us, or if he wants to remain anonymous, he can send me a Personal Message and I can relay it here.

There are other items at the site of the Nickel Plate Mike, including an old steel ice bunker refrigerator car, a South Shore bay window caboose and a elevated crossing gate tower. I'm not sure if the plan was to move these items too.

As for the swing bridge being a substitute for a turntable, it's an interesting concept. The Grand Calumet River in the area of the swing bridge is really misnamed. It is really barely more than a trickle there these days. I suppose the bridge could be moved. Bigger things have been.

So this part of the puzzle about the Frankfort roundhouse and one possible occupant will remain just that for now; a puzzle.

Les

David:

I think the confusion about NKP 2-8-2 # 587 being worked on in the Frankfort roundhouse might be a result of the fantrip she ran out of that city. As I recall, the engine ran from Frankfort east to Tipton, then was turned there for the return trip. She was probably worked on in the roundhouse in Frankfort prior to that trip. But you are right, the actual restoration took place in Beech Grove.

Les

Thanks for a great report on what is happening in Frankfort. Based on the mention of a wye at one end of the ITM line and this turntable I suspect that the one they were supposed to have in storage from the B&O is gone. Here is what I had on it:

1984 – A 100’ B&O turntable from Belmont Roundhouse in Indianapolis was stored at the City of Indianapolis’ Belmont wastewater plant for the Indiana Transportation Museum in Noblesville, IN.

Can anyone tell us if there was any truth to the report? If it was true what happened to it, when, and why?

I took these pictures of the roundhouse and coal tower in 2003

k5ahudson:

Thanks for the pix. It's hard to believe that the roundhouse has deteriorated that much in the three years since your photos were taken. I've looked at an Indiana map. It appears that Frankfort is only about 10 miles off of Interstate 65, the major highway from the southern U.S. to Chicago. A "Frankfort Roundhouse & Railroad Museum" would probably attract visitors to the site. The use of the roundhouse for anything other than a railroad museum would certainly be tragic. Something needs to be done to get this thing "on track." What will it be?

BTW, your photo of the NKP coal dock does not show the "Nickel Plate Road" lettering that is cast right into the concrete. I believe it is on the other side.

Les

ITM has confirmed that they do still have the B&O table in storage on a flatcar.

No, seeing it torn down would be tragic. Using the building for a nonrailroad use is acceptable. My prediction is it will get torn down because people are too busy modeling it in their basements.

Gerald W. kopiasz

The trips ran to Muncie. I'm reasonably certain that at least one leg of the wye at Tipton was alreay out of service.

JAC

I think your information is correct, though I can't say when it was removed or taken over to the wastewater plant or moved onto a flatcar?

It was still on the wastewater plant property last time I met someone there for a work related proposal in 2003 or so. I suspect it is still sitting there, though I don't know if all the parts for it are stored with the bridge or not. Maybe the flatcar holds some of the parts? Maybe it was moved?

I'll try to make it a point to look in the next month or so.

David Farlow
Whitewater Valley RR

For those who don't know poster Gerald Kopiasz above, he made a valiant attempt to save a derelict but restorable Burlington roundhouse at Nebraska City, Nebraska just a few years ago. Built by the Burlington & Missouri River in the 1880s, it had been used by a trucking company after the end of steam in the 1950s, and was one of a very few peaked roof roundhouses still standing. The structure had been home to some of the existing CB&Q K-4 4-6-0s in its later years, which were used on branchlines.

The roundhouse site, being compact and simple, had potential to be restored authentically as a branchline terminal, but was about half blown down by heavy straightline winds just as the project was beginning. With the heavy damage, locals who opposed saving the structure moved quickly to have it removed, but Gerald should be commended for his brave attempt to save the roundhouse, something few of us have tried.

Your posting has given us a date that was unknown before. I had a reply from the Indiana Transportation Museum that did not include this. So now it appears that the B&O table was moved in 1984, going to the waste water plant for storage, I assume on the ground (or timbers). Then about 2003 it was moved to an area near a siding at 39th St, at their station at the state fairgrounds. Again I assume on the ground. After about a year a hiking path needed that space and it was moved for the third time. It is now on a TTX car on one of their sidings south of 46th St. in Indianapolis. This table has now made three moves, short as they may be, in storage for eventual use. At least they can move it more easily now. If anyone can add to this or correct any of it please do so.

Bob and others,

I think a moment's due consideration will reveal the reason that so many "historic" sites languish while other not-as-historic sites thrive.

The "historic" sites that survive are typically "off the beaten path" in areas that are, or were, economic backwaters, where redevelopment or economic investment or redevelopment was slow to reach, if ever. That isolation or economic downturn is usually why said historic places survived, as opposed to disappearing under the latest "economic empowerment zone". I mean, not to beat up on the northeast corner of my native state, but there's a reason that the hopelessly-dysfunctional "Dunder Mifflin" company portrayed on the popular TV show "The Office" is set in Scranton, Pa.--and not just because one of the writers hails from that area! (And, yes, Steamtown Mall was mentioned in a recent episode!)

We've confronted this problem numerous times over the decades: The treasured historic sites (rattle 'em off, gang: EBT, Cumbres & Toltec, Nevada Northern, Steamtown, Spencer, Cass) struggle to keep afloat in turbulent economic times in part because of their locations, while more "attractively"-sited attractions--Strasburg, Grand Canyon, Napa Valley Wine Train, Conway Scenic, Branson, Tweetsie) attract secure numbers and high levels of traffic. Rarely do both historic and attractive location meld handsomely--Baltimore's B&O Museum seems the obvious shining example, but even they have a rough time competing with the Inner Harbor, stadiums, Fells Point, etc. only a mile or three away.

Frankfort, Indiana stands as a most interesting head-scratcher. It's apparently just close enough to Interstate 65 and places like Lafayette and Indianapolis to be potentially commercially viable--I'm now kicking myself that I've sailed past on I-65 twice in three years and didn't know enough to pop in and check it out. On the other hand, it's surrounded by no less than THREE major preservation efforts, two NKP-related to some extent (ITM, Fort Wayne, and North Judson) and a host of smaller or more distant efforts (Knightstown, Terre Haute, Whitewater Valley, Elkhart).

Frankfort does indeed look to be a site with a lot of potential--yes, I'd second a display of NKP 624, and also try to rope in that NKP 54 wooden coach and a few other exhibits, and suggest 765 (and maybe "NKP 190", if I may be crazy?) would find a handsome operating base here. But the sheer reality is that Frankfort would end up an unhappy compromise between a host of already worthwhile and active sites. It would almost, in effect--and I fabricate this example only as a made-up example in a region I have firsthand familiarity with--be like deciding that the ex-Buffalo, Rochester & Pittsburgh shops in DuBois, Pa, right next to I-80 in a RR junction town would be a perfect compromise between North East's Lake Shore museum, Altoona, EBT, Strasburg, Scranton, and Jim Thorpe. No slam against DuBois--my father's home town--but that would be a far worse situation than Steamtown.

Mr. Mitchell again makes a critically important point. LOCATION-LOCATION-LOCATION!!! If any sites develpment model depends to any important degree on paid gate attendance then it MUST be located in a setting where folks come to be entertained. Our industry is replete with very well done facilities that are located "off the beaten path" in non tourist destination settings and they all struggle to survive.
My guess is that Frankfort would suffer a similiar fate?
Ross Rowland

Anyone who is aware of past practices in railroading would also know that the grounds in and around an engine terminal are very likely saturated with all kinds of things that would make it a "brownfield site" by today's environmental standards. The clean-up of the site as well as costs to stabilize the structures would be high, possibly very, very high. Not to say it can't be done, but most museums have a hard time keeping up their exhibits and grounds without these costs, let alone with them. It is hard to see where the funding needed would come from without a substantial outside source.