I am working on several passenger cars that were last used in MOW service by CSX. Does anyone know of a way to figure out the car's history? (ie given the car's current number, is there a source of information to find out the car's past mubers)

The specific cars are;
SBD 990319
SBD 771061
CSXT 972348 ( visable under the paint is L&N 42348)
CSXT 990210 (visable under the paint is SBD 770210)
SBD 765374 (ATLANTIC COAST LINE is visable under paint, as well as PULLMAN and the name Columbia College)

Figuring out these cars' history will be a great aid in working on them and any help is appreciated.

Thanks

Jason Midyette
Mead Colorado

amjm@indra.com

> SBD 765374 (ATLANTIC COAST LINE is visable
> under paint, as well as PULLMAN and the name
> Columbia College)

...from Goolsby's book-
Pullman sleeper, 1916-22, 10 sect-1 comp-2DBR. Off roster by 1963.

> Figuring out these cars' history will be a
> great aid in working on them and any help is
> appreciated.

> Thanks

> Jason Midyette
> Mead Colorado


Jay611@home.com

Do you have any more information on where these cars are now? Where are they? In what condition are they in? (Especially the condition of the HW Pullman) How did they get to where they are now? Restoration Plans?

Thanks,
Tom



rrhistorian@hotmail.com

> Do you have any more information on where
> these cars are now? Where are they? In what
> condition are they in? (Especially the
> condition of the HW Pullman) How did they
> get to where they are now? Restoration
> Plans?

> Thanks,
> Tom

The cars are privatley owned & stored on a siding in Mead, Colorado (north of Denver) They were all purchased from CSX around 1991. Condition of the cars varies, from basically OK to in need of serious help. The COLUMBIA COLLEGE has had its interior gutted, but the body is sound. Plans for the cars right now are to do basic work to stabilize them, ie painting, new windows & minor repairs. Of course, as I am really the only one working on them, It may take a while!

Jason Midyette


amjm@indra.com

>Jason;
Most RRs had a passenger car diagram book
which gave the basic dimensions of the car,its
date and place of mfg. and subsequent changes to the car or its number and the date of those changes.
If you can locate someone who is interested in the history of that particular RR they might have
this book.
Jim

I am working on several passenger cars that
> were last used in MOW service by CSX. Does
> anyone know of a way to figure out the car's
> history? (ie given the car's current number,
> is there a source of information to find out
> the car's past mubers)

> The specific cars are;
> SBD 990319
> SBD 771061
> CSXT 972348 ( visable under the paint is
> L&N 42348)
> CSXT 990210 (visable under the paint is SBD
> 770210)
> SBD 765374 (ATLANTIC COAST LINE is visable
> under paint, as well as PULLMAN and the name
> Columbia College)

> Figuring out these cars' history will be a
> great aid in working on them and any help is
> appreciated.

> Thanks

> Jason Midyette
> Mead Colorado


rrfanjim@mvn.net

The Pullman Company labelled the parts that went into their cars, maybe the location in the car but elsewhere the lot number of the car. From that lot number, it might be possible to access drawings for various car components including the floor plan. One place that lot number might occur is on an original window, visible when the window is temporarily removed from its frame. Try this for that Pullman car, it will either be the name of the car or a four-digit number. If you have that lot number, I would be able to look it up in the Pullman Library at the Illinois Railway Museum and advise you whether we might have specifications on that car. There are a number of Pullman information sites that were listed in an earlier post and they could probably help you also. Ted Anderson, volunteer at IRM

> I am working on several passenger cars that
> were last used in MOW service by CSX. Does
> anyone know of a way to figure out the car's
> history? (ie given the car's current number,
> is there a source of information to find out
> the car's past mubers)

>
> SBD 765374 (ATLANTIC COAST LINE is visable
> under paint, as well as PULLMAN and the name
> Columbia College)

> Figuring out these cars' history will be a
> great aid in working on them and any help is
> appreciated.

> Thanks

> Jason Midyette
> Mead Colorado


tedander@core.com

Or I could just tell you the Plan/Lot Number . . .

From Ralph Barger’s Book “A Century of Pullman Cars, Volume 1, Alphabetical List” Greenberg, 1988 (presently available through Kalmbach) comes this info: Columbia College 10section 2 Double Bedroom 1 Compartment Plan 4042 Lot 4648 Built between November and December of 1922, and that it was rebuilt and renamed. Wayner Publication’s “The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars, 1985” says that this car was rebuilt in December, 1934 from the car Cape Fear for the Havana Special. In 1948 it was Leased to Pullman by the ACL, withdrawn from Lease in 1960, and reported as scrapped (the latter is reportedly a common error with this book). In case you were wondering, the Cape Fear was a 10 Section, 1 Drawing Room 2 Compartment car built to plan 2585D, lot 4648 for the “San Francisco Overland Limited”.

Do you have any photos (especially of the interior) that you could share?

Tom Cornillie


rrhistorian@hotmail.com

In addition to the information in the Barger and Wayner books (mentioned in another response) you can get a copy of the original specs for the Pullman car from the Illinois Railway Museum and photographs of it (probably) from the California Railway Museum in Sacramento. Who ever gutted the car has greatly reduced its value, but with the specs from IRM you can then start the laborious search for replacement fixtures. (IRM also has catalogues of the parts and fixtures that are mentioned in the Specs.)

Malcolm

grinnellglacier@yahoo.com

In this case (as in many cases) it is important to define what you mean by gutted. I have seen many cases (especially with HW Pullmans) where people describe a car as being gutted if it has had its lower and upper sections removed, but still has the wall moldings and some interior partitions intact, along with the bases of some lighting fixtures. In such a case, a car would be stripped. (An example of this at IRM would be the former CNW Pullman Floyd River) I consider a gutted car to be that which has had its fixtures and walls removed, exposing the structure of the car. There is a huge difference in the feasibility in restoration between the two definitions, yet they are often used interchangeably.

Tom


rrhistorian@hotmail.com

>>I consider a gutted car to be that which has had its fixtures and walls removed, exposing the structure of the car. There is a huge difference in the feasibility in restoration between the two
definitions, yet they are often used interchangeably.<<

Well, gutted can also mean that all the original stuff is gone and that a complete new interior has been built which has no historical value.

Some redone car interiors look more like apartments than railcars. The owners don't consider than gutted, needless to say, but for a museum they have zero value because everything historical about the car interior is gone.

As for the car in question, the person who started this thread would have to say what they meant when they used the word "gutted."

Malcolm

grinnellglacier@yahoo.com

> Well, gutted can also mean that all the
> original stuff is gone and that a complete
> new interior has been built which has no
> historical value.

I would consider this to be a renovation. As with stripped/gutted, renovation is often used simultaneously with restoration. How many times have you heard dinner trains, or even the American Orient Express referred to as a "beautifully restored train" when in reality it is a reflection of vague ideas of what passenger cars looked like at some indefinate time in the past. As preservationists we should make every effort to make clear what we mean. (i.e. full restoration; interior restoration, mechanical renovation; full renovation)

> Some redone car interiors look more like
> apartments than railcars. The owners don't
> consider than gutted, needless to say, but
> for a museum they have zero value because
> everything historical about the car interior
> is gone.

My last job was with an organization that had such a job performed on a PRR Budd Twin-Unit diner built for the 1948 Broadway Limited. The cars were basically reconstructed from the frame up to new specs.

> As for the car in question, the person who
> started this thread would have to say what
> they meant when they used the word
> "gutted."

Exactly

(or they could post photos :-)

rrhistorian@hotmail.com

> I am working on several passenger cars that
> were last used in MOW service by CSX. Does
> anyone know of a way to figure out the car's
> history? (ie given the car's current number,
> is there a source of information to find out
> the car's past mubers)

> The specific cars are;
> SBD 990319
> SBD 771061
> CSXT 972348 ( visable under the paint is
> L&N 42348)
> CSXT 990210 (visable under the paint is SBD
> 770210)
> SBD 765374 (ATLANTIC COAST LINE is visable
> under paint, as well as PULLMAN and the name
> Columbia College)

> Figuring out these cars' history will be a
> great aid in working on them and any help is
> appreciated.

> Thanks

> Jason Midyette
> Mead Colorado

Jason:

Your question about the heritage of the cars seems to have been sidetracked, especially as concerns SBD 990319 and SBD 771061. I once tried to track down an old SBD car as to its heritage with absolutely no luck. Anyway, under those SBD paints too are probably the answers. IF you sand carefully in certain areas, you might be able to determine what the cars were originally (I have done this at our museum with certain cars BUT it does not always work.) Also check the underframes for old numbers (many times this area was not repainted or not repainted well.) BTW, what type of cars are these two? Old passenger cars, boxcars, or what?

Good luck to you.


midlandblb@cs.com

> Or I could just tell you the Plan/Lot Number
> . . .

> From Ralph Barger’s Book “A Century of
> Pullman Cars, Volume 1, Alphabetical List”
> Greenberg, 1988 (presently available through
> Kalmbach) comes this info: Columbia College
> 10section 2 Double Bedroom 1 Compartment
> Plan 4042 Lot 4648 Built between November
> and December of 1922, and that it was
> rebuilt and renamed. Wayner PublicationÂ’s
> “The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman
> Cars, 1985” says that this car was rebuilt
> in December, 1934 from the car Cape Fear for
> the Havana Special. In 1948 it was Leased to
> Pullman by the ACL, withdrawn from Lease in
> 1960, and reported as scrapped (the latter
> is reportedly a common error with this
> book). In case you were wondering, the Cape
> Fear was a 10 Section, 1 Drawing Room 2
> Compartment car built to plan 2585D, lot
> 4648 for the “San Francisco Overland
> Limited”.

> Do you have any photos (especially of the
> interior) that you could share?

> Tom Cornillie

I will take some photos of the car this week & email them to you. Let me know what format works best.

Jason Midyette


amjm@indra.com

> In this case (as in many cases) it is
> important to define what you mean by gutted.
> I have seen many cases (especially with HW
> Pullmans) where people describe a car as
> being gutted if it has had its lower and
> upper sections removed, but still has the
> wall moldings and some interior partitions
> intact, along with the bases of some
> lighting fixtures. In such a case, a car
> would be stripped. (An example of this at
> IRM would be the former CNW Pullman Floyd
> River) I consider a gutted car to be that
> which has had its fixtures and walls
> removed, exposing the structure of the car.
> There is a huge difference in the
> feasibility in restoration between the two
> definitions, yet they are often used
> interchangeably.

> Tom

In the case of the Columbia College, it has had the berths removed and is filled with storage shelves, some fixtures and moulding may remain. In the case of SBD 990319, it is more intact, with only the light fixtures and other detail parts having been removed.

Jason Midyette


amjm@indra.com

> Jason:

> Your question about the heritage of the cars
> seems to have been sidetracked, especially
> as concerns SBD 990319 and SBD 771061. I
> once tried to track down an old SBD car as
> to its heritage with absolutely no luck.
> Anyway, under those SBD paints too are
> probably the answers. IF you sand carefully
> in certain areas, you might be able to
> determine what the cars were originally (I
> have done this at our museum with certain
> cars BUT it does not always work.) Also
> check the underframes for old numbers (many
> times this area was not repainted or not
> repainted well.) BTW, what type of cars are
> these two? Old passenger cars, boxcars, or
> what?

> Good luck to you.

All of the cars are heavyweight passenger cars. Unfortunetly, most of the paint on the cars has removed itself, but i hold out hope for finding some clues.

Jason Midyette


amjm@indra.com