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 Post subject: ATSF coach in Prescott, AZ looking for a home/use
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:15 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8353
Location: Baltimore, MD
I just posted an item to Flimsies from the Prescott Daily Courier regarding a 1946 former ATSF/Amtrak coach looking for a home/use. This car was part of a restaurant in Prescott and was perched in the middle of an isolated through steel truss bridge above Granite Creek not too far from the downtown Prescott depot, which was isolated upon the abandonment of the through line through Prescott in the 1960s and the resultant branch in the 1980s. I've seen photos of the car in the storage yard, definitely salvageable albeit who knows what it suffered in the move. (There are big gouges in the asphalt where the car was rolled off one end of the span on its wheels.)

Grand Canyon? Verde Canyon? The little depot museum in Skull Valley? Arizona Railway Museum? Anybody?


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 Post subject: Further info:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:54 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8353
Location: Baltimore, MD
From photos and rosters:

AT&SF 3159, lightweight stainless 52-seat coach, later Amtrak 5231, built by Budd in 1946.


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 Post subject: Re: Further info:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:49 pm 

More information.

This was the first of a group of 8 cars, numbered 3159-3166. Average weight 58 tons in service, 55 tons out of service.

Source: http://www.atsfrr.com/resources/hitchcock/pass2816.htm

At least one other car from this group survives, albiet in a heavily modified condition, at the Arizona Railroad Musuem.


http://www.azrymuseum.org/roster/Regal%20Phoenix%206-2001.jpg

http://www.azrymuseum.org/roster/roster.html

Does anybody here know if the car retains its luggage racks, partitions for restrooms, or other interior fixtures?

Tom Cornillie


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Further info:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:50 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:02 am
Posts: 41
Location: Albuquerque....
I stumbled upon the car today, I would have taken a look in the interior, but it was raised off the ground and I decided not to climb inside...

The trucks are located nearby...

Image

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William Diehl


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 Post subject: Re: Further info:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:01 am 

Not a bad looking car - I like those full skirts. What is the current ownership status of the car? The measures taken to protect the car shown in the photo are not inexpensive. What remained of the underbody equipment, brake and steam lines?

Many thanks,
Tom Cornillie


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Further info:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:30 am 

Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:02 am
Posts: 41
Location: Albuquerque....
The angle cocks at both ends remained, along with the chain for the hand brake remained, but the mechanism for the hand brake was gone. Steam lines were gone...no connections for HEP which I was surprised about since the car's trucks had 6/10/94 stenciled on them...I would have thought something that recent might have had it...though not knowing the history of the car, I'll have to assume it was in the deadline for years.

Of interesting note though, on one axle was something I had never seen before an "accordion" piece of metal, which I also found under the car hooked to a cylindrical object. Again, having never seen this (nothing like this on any of the cars I've inspected on the GCRy), and the lack of HEP, I assume this was used to generate power for the coach?

The brakes on the trucks them selfs looked to be in good condition...I didnt do a formal inspection, but the brake pads were well worn.

Appologigys for the conditions of these photos, but it's the best I could do with a camera phone.

Image

Image

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William Diehl


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 Post subject: Re: Further info:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:40 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:37 pm
Posts: 435
Location: Missoula MT
Probably the only reason this car didn't see PV conversion is because is started as a coach.

"on one axle was something I had never seen before an "accordion" piece of metal, which I also found under the car hooked to a cylindrical object.

The car was equipped with disc brakes, the accordion look is for internal fins to dissapate heat from braking friction. Alternately it could be a decelostat (sic) which was part of an early anti-lock brake system for passenger cars. Not sure if that is showing in the photos.

Wheelsets on the far truckset look worn below condemable limits. Still (depending on the centersill and draft gear and interior), this car would be a good candidate for restoration. Not a cheap candidate though (window glass amongst other things.).

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT


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 Post subject: Re: Further info:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:27 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:49 pm
Posts: 346
"on one axle was something I had never seen before an "accordion" piece of metal, which I also found under the car hooked to a cylindrical object.

I'm pretty sure what he is talking about is: A) the pulley for the belt drive generator mounted on the axle, and B) the generator itself. Most AT&SF low-level lightweight cars had a relatively small (say 15 kw) generator for charging the large bank of 32V storage batteries. They were usually driven by 4 long belts from a pulley on an inboard wheelset. ATSF cars did not need the larger 25 - 30kw Spicer drive-connected genemotors that are more common on post-war lightweight cars because of the smaller electrical load of the steam-ejector AC systems that ATSF was so fond of. These generators did not have a 220V AC motor to run them on stand-by power (note they were not called GENEmotors) in the yard or at the depot, so the ATSF version of stand-by power was a 32V battery charger plugged into a receptacle at the side of the car.

I am familiar with this car and there should not be any major issues making it road worthy for freight service if it was placed back on live rail. Fully skirted ex-ATSF cars are not too common anymore so it would be a shame if she were scrapped. As far as I know, most of each restroom was gutted before the car even ended up in Arizona, but the coach seating area, including luggage racks (but not the coach seats) should still be intact.


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 Post subject: Re: Further info:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:44 am 

In addition to this being a fully skirted coach - I do not know of many Santa Fe Budd cars that were not HEP'd, equipped with gensets, or coverted to PV's. This , combined with (what sounds to be) the relative intactness of its historic technological fabric, would raise the importance of the car to the preservation community.

The key question remains - who now owns it, and what is the plan/goal?

Tom Cornillie


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Further info:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:11 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:49 pm
Posts: 346
It's owned by a private party in Prescott who does not know what to do with it. It is for sale and any reasonable offer will be considered. Read between the lines - it can probably be had cheap but it will cost a few bucks to get it back on live rail.


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 Post subject: Moving Estimates?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:01 pm 

For those who know - about what would it cost to make this car movable in interchange?

Recently a passenger car was moved approximately 600 miles, across 4-state, over the highway using a dollies mounted under the truck bolsters. The final cost of this move was over $30,000.

Tom Cornillie


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Moving Estimates?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:24 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:49 pm
Posts: 346
This coach looks to be already sitting on some sort of heavy-haul highway trailer, so some of the work of moving back to live rail is already done. Based on a cursory look at the trailer in the pictures, it looks like 2 cranes may be required to lift the car off the trailer to live rail. There should be a suitable spot for rerailing within about 100 miles of Prescott, so I don’t think there’s any reason that the total cost for 2 cranes, a flatbed to carry the RR car trucks, and the highway move, should be more than about $7,500.00 dollars, and it could possibly be done for a few thousand less if someone knowledgeable arranges the move.

Once back on live rail, the car would probably need all the usual prep work - COT&S, lube, AEI tags, etc. There shouldn’t be any big surprises cost-wise.


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 Post subject: Re: Moving Estimates?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:35 pm 

Quote:
Once back on live rail, the car would probably need all the usual prep work - COT&S, lube, AEI tags, etc. There shouldn’t be any big surprises cost-wise.


What would be an appropriate range of costs for this work?

Tom Cornillie


  
 
 Post subject: Prep for movement costs
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:36 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:49 pm
Posts: 346
The cost variables for this work are pretty much the same as they would be for any car. Here is a general overview of what is involved: If there is any travel + lodging involved to get to the car and to do the work, you have to figure that cost. Usually at least 2 trips are required - one to remove the cylinders and brake valves for rebuilding and remove any air brake hoses that need replacement, and one trip to re-install same, perform a Single Car Test, install the AEI tags, lube the bearings, and make any other repairs that are needed. Figure at least a day or 2 (or 3) for each trip. Also, you may have to wait to perform an SCT in front of a RR inspector, and it may take a few days before the local inspector has the time to meet with you to inspect the car after all the work is complete.

The cost for the labor for the above can vary greatly depending on whether you do the work yourself or use hired help. Cost for shipping a set of brake valves back and forth for rebuilding plus the rebuilding itself will typically run about $1,500.00 to $2,000.00. Cost of materials to rebuild the brake cylinders can also vary depending on whether you need new hoses, packing cups, dust boots, gaskets, grease, etc. This ATSF coach most likely will need these items, so figure another $1,500 (off the top of my head/ballpark figure) for those materials. Keep in mind that the next time you do a COT&S on a car with new brake cylinder parts, those new rubber parts should last thru several rebuildings so they don't need to be replaced every time. You can rebuild the 8 brake cylinders yourself on-site with 2 guys in probably a day, if you have all the parts on hand.

In the case of this coach, a real convenient time to remove the brake cylinders is while the trucks are out from under the car. It is infinitely easier to remove the cylinders in this manner than to lay on your back under the car and remove them while all the crud drops down into your eyes.

All in all, we're not talking big dollars here, relatively speaking. And as I said at the beginning, these costs are typical of what everybody pays to prep a passenger car for movement over a freight RR. Also, keep in mind that the rates to move these things over the freight RR's have really gone thru the roof within the last few years (over $4.00/mile in most cases) mostly because the RR's can charge whatever they want to move our cars, since they don't want this kind of business. I think saving RR equipment is a very worthwhile endevour, but you have to be willing to shell out some bucks to make it happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Prep for movement costs
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:15 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:11 pm
Posts: 345
If the trailer it's on is safe for over the road highway travel,your best bet would be to leave it on the trailer to move it to it's final(for now) home, then crane it off. Or use jacks and beams to keep the cost down even more.
I'll bet one would find that to be the easist, quickest and least costly way to move it.
Not to mention least nerve racking for the owner and probably safest for the car.
I've moved cars and locomotives both over the highway and over the railroad and to me that would be the way I would aproach moving it.


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