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 Post subject: What's the progress on TVRM's ex SR 630?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 2:09 pm 

This question is for Mark Ray or anyone that volunteers time at TVRM. I just checked out the recent update about 610, but I was just wondering is there still work being done on the 630, or if the work has stopped for the time being? I am looking forward to seeing her in steam sometime in the future.

stiggy_26@hotmail.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: What's the progress on TVRM's ex SR 630?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 4:34 pm 

Work is still progressing on the 630. We are currently working with the FRA on approval of the boiler repair planned for the first course (which will include a welded in flue sheet). Other on going work includes rebuilding of the furnace bearers and other frame activities. Wheel work should begin as soon as the K-4 1361 wheels are wrapped up. We will be replacing all the spring rigging components on the 630. Quotes are already on hand for replacement springs. She'll also get a roller bearing lead truck axle, new crown brasses and hub liners.

We did shift all of our volunteer help onto the 610 last weekend for the re-wheeling but otherwise the Back Shop Gang is working full force on the 630.

If you'll email me with your email address, I can put you on my weekly shop update email list.

TVRM Shop Updates by Steve Freer
aw90h@cs.com


  
 
 Post subject: roller bearing retrofits
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 7:28 pm 

Have you given any thought to the roller bearing retrofit as done by Greg Dodd at GSMRR? It looked simple and elegant to me - what do you think?

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net


  
 
 Post subject: Re: roller bearing retrofits
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 8:47 pm 

Dave,

After seeing how well the journals and crown brasses looked on the 610 after at least 60,000 miles of service, it's not worth the investment for us to make the roller bearing conversion on the 610 at this time. We did renew the hub plates (they are separate from the crown brasses) and there was some cost associated with that. The GSMRR is a very curvy railroad and the rollers were a good way to keep the lateral in the 1702. It does seem to be working well for them. When the time comes for crown brass renewal on the 610, then we may look harder at it.

As for the 630, here we are dealing with a larger locomotive with 9"x12" journals on 1, 2, 4 and 10" x 12" on the main. Frame clearance at the main axle is only 2.75". I am not too keen on cutting the axles down to fit rollers on like had to be done on the 1702. I think on a light engine like an S-160 this is a good conversion. But I am not too sure of how it would work on heavier power where the axle diameter has to be reduced. Has anyone run the calcs on the axle stresses for a roller bearing conversion?

Is Angel and Rudd's wedding going to be announced on RYPN as a Brief?

G. Mark Ray - TVRM

TVRM Shop Updates
aw90h@cs.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: roller bearing retrofits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2002 8:10 am 

Mark,

Fitting roller bearings in the existing pedestal openings of a non-roller bearing engine can definitely be difficult. I've been trying to find out the details of the GSMR conversion for some time; I wasn't aware they had to cut down the axles but obviously that's one way to provide more clearance for the bearings.

David Wardale ran into this same problem designing an improved QJ 2-10-2 in China. The Chinese planned to build new engines but insisted that the same frame openings be maintained so that rollers could be refitted to the existing engines. Wardale worked with SKF and came up with an arrangement that would work. Most axles weren't a big problem, but the main driving axle gave him a lot of headaches. The arrangement finally worked out used two sets dual bearings mounted side-by-side on the main axle. Wardale mentions this was not the best setup from an engineering standpoint, because it was nearly impossible to ensure the loads were the same on the two bearings on each side of the locomotive. All the required SKF bearings were purchased at substantial cost, but unfortunately the Chinese killed the project and they were never used.

Another possible way to do this is to use the "floating driving axle" arrangement used on N&W #1218. The 1218 has very large diameter roller bearings mounted in the hubs of the drivers, actually outside of the pedestal openings. Their outer races fit inside a recess in the inner face of the drivers, and their inner races run on a hollow tube which is fixed inside the driving boxes. The driving axle runs inside this tube, and mainly carries the torsional load which turns the wheels. I don't know how hard this would be to refit to an existing engine (it might require new driver castings) but at least it gets around the problem of small pedestal openings.

Good Steaming,
Hugh Odom

> Dave,

> After seeing how well the journals and crown
> brasses looked on the 610 after at least
> 60,000 miles of service, it's not worth the
> investment for us to make the roller bearing
> conversion on the 610 at this time. We did
> renew the hub plates (they are separate from
> the crown brasses) and there was some cost
> associated with that. The GSMRR is a very
> curvy railroad and the rollers were a good
> way to keep the lateral in the 1702. It does
> seem to be working well for them. When the
> time comes for crown brass renewal on the
> 610, then we may look harder at it.

> As for the 630, here we are dealing with a
> larger locomotive with 9"x12"
> journals on 1, 2, 4 and 10" x 12"
> on the main. Frame clearance at the main
> axle is only 2.75". I am not too keen
> on cutting the axles down to fit rollers on
> like had to be done on the 1702. I think on
> a light engine like an S-160 this is a good
> conversion. But I am not too sure of how it
> would work on heavier power where the axle
> diameter has to be reduced. Has anyone run
> the calcs on the axle stresses for a roller
> bearing conversion?


The Ultimate Steam Page
whodom@awod.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: roller bearing retrofits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2002 8:49 pm 

Thanks, Hugh. That's new information. Now I'll have to get Doug or Scott to sketch this arrangement so that I can better understand it. We have had discussions about this, and the refitting of older engines was one of the things that posed marketing problems for Timken when they first proposed rollers on steam power in the late 20's-early 30's time frame. Seems as though I recall something about retrofit of some Wabash or other Mid-western road switch engines... But it took an example like the two SP GS-5's to prove the concept. They wouldn't pull one more car or go any faster, nor did they contribute any significant gains in fuel or water usage, but while the GS-4's were in the shop for new brasses, the 5's were only visiting the roundhouse briefly for servicing, thus providing return on investment, rather than soaking more of it up, the SP's spring-pad lubricators notwithstanding. Not sure if the N&W J's would have had as successful results without rollers, though. Even the J-1's were built with rollers, albeit with heavier rods that gave balancing problems.

Mike

> Mark,

> Fitting roller bearings in the existing
> pedestal openings of a non-roller bearing
> engine can definitely be difficult. I've
> been trying to find out the details of the
> GSMR conversion for some time; I wasn't
> aware they had to cut down the axles but
> obviously that's one way to provide more
> clearance for the bearings.

> David Wardale ran into this same problem
> designing an improved QJ 2-10-2 in China.
> The Chinese planned to build new engines but
> insisted that the same frame openings be
> maintained so that rollers could be refitted
> to the existing engines. Wardale worked with
> SKF and came up with an arrangement that
> would work. Most axles weren't a big
> problem, but the main driving axle gave him
> a lot of headaches. The arrangement finally
> worked out used two sets dual bearings
> mounted side-by-side on the main axle.
> Wardale mentions this was not the best setup
> from an engineering standpoint, because it
> was nearly impossible to ensure the loads
> were the same on the two bearings on each
> side of the locomotive. All the required SKF
> bearings were purchased at substantial cost,
> but unfortunately the Chinese killed the
> project and they were never used.

> Another possible way to do this is to use
> the "floating driving axle"
> arrangement used on N&W #1218. The 1218
> has very large diameter roller bearings
> mounted in the hubs of the drivers, actually
> outside of the pedestal openings. Their
> outer races fit inside a recess in the inner
> face of the drivers, and their inner races
> run on a hollow tube which is fixed inside
> the driving boxes. The driving axle runs
> inside this tube, and mainly carries the
> torsional load which turns the wheels. I
> don't know how hard this would be to refit
> to an existing engine (it might require new
> driver castings) but at least it gets around
> the problem of small pedestal openings.

> Good Steaming,
> Hugh Odom


Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum
newriver400@cs.com


  
 
 Post subject: Re: roller bearing retrofits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2002 10:01 pm 

Mike:

Timken might be able to do a double-bearing arrangement that would be of small outside diameter similar to what SKF proposed for China, or you could talk to SKF. Wardale mentions the fact that Timken used to market a "quad bearing" package (for passenger cars I think) that was a similar concept.

I'll be glad to scan a cross-section of the N&W A floating axle hub arrangement from the 1941 Locomotive Cyclopedia if you'd like; just let me know. I imagine this bearing arrangement must have been devised with retrofits in mind, but it may have other advantages as well. It certainly allows the use of a BIG roller bearing for each driver.

Hugh

> Thanks, Hugh. That's new information. Now
> I'll have to get Doug or Scott to sketch
> this arrangement so that I can better
> understand it. We have had discussions about
> this, and the refitting of older engines was
> one of the things that posed marketing
> problems for Timken when they first proposed
> rollers on steam power in the late
> 20's-early 30's time frame. Seems as though
> I recall something about retrofit of some
> Wabash or other Mid-western road switch
> engines... But it took an example like the
> two SP GS-5's to prove the concept. They
> wouldn't pull one more car or go any faster,
> nor did they contribute any significant
> gains in fuel or water usage, but while the
> GS-4's were in the shop for new brasses, the
> 5's were only visiting the roundhouse
> briefly for servicing, thus providing return
> on investment, rather than soaking more of
> it up, the SP's spring-pad lubricators
> notwithstanding. Not sure if the N&W J's
> would have had as successful results without
> rollers, though. Even the J-1's were built
> with rollers, albeit with heavier rods that
> gave balancing problems.

> Mike


The Ultimate Steam Page
whodom@awod.com


  
 
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