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 Post subject: Boiler Lagging On Operational Steam Locomotives
PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:34 pm 

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:03 pm
Posts: 934
Location: Warszawa, Polska
I was just wondering what gets used for boiler lagging on operational steam engines these days. A number of years ago, I visited the South Simcoe Railway in Tottenham Ontario, and I recall the 'big boss' Eric Smith telling me that he uses fibreglass insulation on his engines. Is that the industry standard? If not, what is?

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 Post subject: Re: Boiler Lagging On Operational Steam Locomotives
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:11 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2226
I never got the material info what was slapped onto 765, but the abestos was removed, and what was found was an insulation in bar shapes, and it was hosed down and cut up, smashed up, muddied up and everybody hand slapped it onto the boiler.


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 Post subject: Re: Boiler Lagging On Operational Steam Locomotives
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:25 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:57 am
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Location: Faulkland, Delaware
I've seen some locomotives insulated with Cerawool blankets and others with Calcium Silicate blocks and mud. Both are effective, I think the blocks stand up better to people walking on the jacketing. I remember seeing old an MSDS for asbestos saying it was best cleaned up simply by wetting it down, removing, and throwing it in the trash. Boy how times have changed. At the plant where I worked we removed over 100 tons of asbestos.

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 Post subject: Re: Boiler Lagging On Operational Steam Locomotives
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:15 am 

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:03 pm
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Location: Warszawa, Polska
Well, for DIY asbestos abatements, water seems to do the trick...

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 Post subject: Re: Boiler Lagging On Operational Steam Locomotives
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:01 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:58 pm
Posts: 80
tomgears wrote:
I've seen some locomotives insulated with Cerawool blankets and others with Calcium Silicate blocks and mud. Both are effective, I think the blocks stand up better to people walking on the jacketing. I remember seeing old an MSDS for asbestos saying it was best cleaned up simply by wetting it down, removing, and throwing it in the trash. Boy how times have changed. At the plant where I worked we removed over 100 tons of asbestos.


NH&I just put new lagging and jacketing on 40, and they put the blocks on top and the blankets below. Before, it was paper-backed fiberglass building insulation.

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 Post subject: Re: Boiler Lagging On Operational Steam Locomotives
PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:27 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:09 pm
Posts: 364
Location: Los Angeles
Building insulation does not have the insulating properties needed for boilers. Forget it even though it is easy to find, cheap and user friendly. Stationary boiler industry uses a product called Rockwool, http://www.rockwool.com/. While rockwool is used in housing it is also used as boiler insulation. It has a far higher R value than fiberglas bats. Then a big step above rockwool would be ceramic insulating blankets. This product has insulating values off the scale and is used in furnaces with direct flame contact. It is generally good to 2400F.


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 Post subject: Re: Boiler Lagging On Operational Steam Locomotives
PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:02 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:37 pm
Posts: 35
Location: Bay Area, California
Calcium silicate "brick" insulation holds up well for locomotives that are stored in and outdoors. It is a real pain to install, but once you get the trick down it isn't too bad. The fiberglass blanket will move under the jacket when it gets wet and tends to migrate down to the bottom of the jacket.

J Kruger


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 Post subject: Re: Boiler Lagging On Operational Steam Locomotives
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:51 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:54 am
Posts: 4
Cal sil is a nightmare to work with most of the time I've seen it secured with wire which is time consuming and a mess at best.At the "Loop" Phil Reeder had the greatest idea I had ever seen in securing the cal sill blocks to the barrel of the boiler on 12. He used a banding machine which was a snap. Took hours and hours less time to compleate the job and very little breakage of the block material.His secret also was securing the blocks to the barrel first with bungy cords which work great!!


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 Post subject: Re: Boiler Lagging On Operational Steam Locomotives
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:45 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2342
Location: Northern Illinois
fairplay wrote:
Cal sil is a nightmare to work with most of the time I've seen it secured with wire which is time consuming and a mess at best.At the "Loop" Phil Reeder had the greatest idea I had ever seen in securing the cal sill blocks to the barrel of the boiler on 12. He used a banding machine which was a snap. Took hours and hours less time to compleate the job and very little breakage of the block material.His secret also was securing the blocks to the barrel first with bungy cords which work great!!


That's a neat idea. Keep in mind, stainless steel banding should be available (people don't use it on pallets, but it is used to secure street signs to poles, etc.) so the banding should have a decent chance to survive fifteen years at least.

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 Post subject: Re: Boiler Lagging On Operational Steam Locomotives
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:07 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5404
Dennis Storzek wrote:
fairplay wrote:
Cal sil is a nightmare to work with most of the time I've seen it secured with wire which is time consuming and a mess at best.At the "Loop" Phil Reeder had the greatest idea I had ever seen in securing the cal sill blocks to the barrel of the boiler on 12. He used a banding machine which was a snap. Took hours and hours less time to compleate the job and very little breakage of the block material.His secret also was securing the blocks to the barrel first with bungy cords which work great!!


That's a neat idea. Keep in mind, stainless steel banding should be available (people don't use it on pallets, but it is used to secure street signs to poles, etc.) so the banding should have a decent chance to survive fifteen years at least.


Dennis -

A few years ago, I was in the IRM steam shop in Union and they were putting "lagging" on a steamer there in cut out chunks. But I don't remember what the material was. Do you recall from your days at IRM?

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Boiler Lagging On Operational Steam Locomotives
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:36 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2342
Location: Northern Illinois
How many is "a few years"? I haven't been active for close to thirty years now, but I did get to cut the magnesia block for the first lagging job on 1630. J David got a deal on 12" x 24" block; I got the job of making 6" x 24" block on the band saw. I don't know what they've used since.

Thinking back to those days, the Com. Ed. No. 5, the 0-6-0, was originally lagged with fiberglass residential insulation. As others have noted, it wasn't too long before it all slid to the bottom of the jacket, and the engine looked pregnant thereafter.

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 Post subject: Re: Boiler Lagging On Operational Steam Locomotives
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:53 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5404
Dennis Storzek wrote:
How many is "a few years"? I haven't been active for close to thirty years now, but I did get to cut the magnesia block for the first lagging job on 1630. J David got a deal on 12" x 24" block; I got the job of making 6" x 24" block on the band saw. I don't know what they've used since.

Thinking back to those days, the Com. Ed. No. 5, the 0-6-0, was originally lagged with fiberglass residential insulation. As others have noted, it wasn't too long before it all slid to the bottom of the jacket, and the engine looked pregnant thereafter.


Dennis -

Sorry, I should have been a bit more specific. It hasn't been 30 years, but certainly longer than "a few years". I think I remember the engine being the UP 2-8-0, but I am not even sure of that anymore. Maybe someone from the IRM steam department can tell us how they now do it.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Boiler Lagging On Operational Steam Locomotives
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:18 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2528
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Thanks to Cal Sil, I spent one of the longest, hottest summers of my youth helping lag L&N 152.

If I remember correctly, we used 6x24 inch blocks. We cut "v" shaped inserts out of them, which allowed the block to "bend" to conform to the shape of the boiler. It produced dust, lots of it. By the end of the project, we had a nice layer and little piles of the stuff all over the barn. It gave me a healthy understanding of how asbestos-related diseases affected people in the insulating industry.

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 Post subject: Re: Boiler Lagging On Operational Steam Locomotives
PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:17 am 

Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:20 am
Posts: 35
Les,

The IRM Steam Department is using American Fibrex 1900 Block insulation. I found several cartons, one of which was marked as a carton of 2.5" x 12" x 36" blocks.

The web site http://www.americanfibrex.com describes FBX 1900 (I assume identical to what we have) as:

Quote:
FBX 1900 BLOCK AND FBX 1900-K BLOCK is composed of semi-refractory fibers, which are bonded together with a combination organic/inorganic binder system. FBX 1900 Block is widely used in applications up to 1900 degrees F where long-life, residual strength and low moisture absorption are important. FBX 1900-K Block is produced at a lower density with lower organic content, and is recommended for use where extensive shaping is necessary during installation or where out-gassing during start-up must be carefully controlled.

We do not appear to be using the 1900-K Block.

Regards,
Bob Milhaupt
IRM Steam Department Volunteer


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 Post subject: Re: Boiler Lagging On Operational Steam Locomotives
PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:39 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5404
Bob -

Thanks much for the information.

Les


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