Lake Alexander was removed from Pullman lease in January 1963 while Lake Borgne remained in Pullman lease until November 1964. No further disposition is mentioned, which is why I believe that these were the two cars that saw use in MofW service.

Lake Minnetonka was wrecked on the Seaboard in December 1953 while Lake Chicot remained in Pullman lease until February 1965, after which the car is listed as being scrapped.



I didn't think about the ACL cars. This is what is listed in the book...

Lake Elmo was withdrawn from Pullman lease in November 1964 and scrapped, Lake Louise was withdrawn in August 1956 and scrapped, Lake Pelican became ACL coach 900 sometime after its withdrawl from Pullman lease in December 1959 (no further disposition info), Lake Winnebago was withdrawn in May 1960 and scrapped, and Puerto Rico was withdrawn in July 1960 and scrapped.

Thanks, Jerry, for the info on the ACL and SAL Plan #3585 Lake sleepers!

Another Survivor:

275. Benburb (Lot #4574, Plan #2410F, 1920/42, 12S-1DR)--Tourist #2438 sold to SOU and converted to baggage-express #582 (1947) to SERM--see here: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1787564 (Dave Mullison photo)

Another Survivor:

276. Bizet (Lot #4833, Plan #3523A, 1924, 6C-3DR)--sold to SOU #2519 (1948) to South Carolina RR Mus--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=225992 (Thomas Warshaw photo)

Additional Mystery Cars:

SSW MW #96210--according to Jerry LaBoda's website (listed under #90210, window pattern confirms it is the same car in both photos), this is the Mt. Washburn (Lot #4816, Plan #3521, 1924, 10S-lng-obs)--sold to SSW (1948)--the confusion with this one is that the car in the two linked photos doesn't resemble a Plan #3521 car!!--can anyone clarify??

a. In Texarkana in 1975: http://abpr.railfan.net/january00/01-01-00/sswmw_98210_hw_pullman_12-x_texarkana_1975.jpg (Tim O'Connor photo) (click once to enlarge)

b. In Denver in January 2012: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2918031 (Alex Gillman photo)

I don't know for certain if either of the two below cars were actually converted from sleepers--can anyone clarify the history of these two??

GS&F #6450--South Carolina RR Mus--baggage with four wheel trucks--did SOU occasionally swap three axle trucks out for two axle trucks??--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=225995 (Thomas Warshaw photo)

SOU business car--South Carolina RR Mus--painted as Norfolk--anyone know the identity of this car??--one of the cars converted from a sleeper or not??--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=225993 (Thomas Warshaw photo)

Sources:

1. Pictures located via Jerry LaBoda's photo links website at: http://passcarphotos.info/

2. Information from Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database at: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

I couldn't tell you where 6450 came from, but I'll go with a 0% chance that it was ever a pullman sleeper. if you put 3 axle trucks under that car they'd hang out past the end sills. Also, the Norfolk is former SAL and I think was homebuilt. I also seem to recall that it was an unusual length.

ETA

I agree with etalcos that this car could not have come from Pullman car but I smell another rat regarding the car. The Southern Diagram books of the 50s and 60s show the 6450 as being a shorter car that did not have a round roof, built about 1914. The round roof cars that were modernized/rebuilt Pullmans started with 6454. If you look at diagrams and photos of the four axle round roof baggage express cars built by either Bethleham Steel or St. Louis car they were all numbers in the 500s and they still don't match the 6450 as to the number of roof vents, the pattern of rivets or the two different size doors. From comparing it to cars in the Jerry's photo database I'm not even sure it is really a Southern car.

Tim Andrews

Definitely not a Plan 3521 car, will get that fixed. The Pullman Heavyweight books lists this as being Mt. Washburn but it obviously wasn't. Wonder which Plan 2410 12s-1dr was given to the SSW?



The fact that the car has newer doors is part of the clue as to why the car does not have a clerestory roof... the car was "modernized". Many cars from that period (in this case, 1913) had canvas covered wood roofs, making for a less than ideal way of weather proofing the car... they simply did not hold up over time, which was the reason why arched roofs were put on the Pullmans converted to baggage - express, later cars of the same basic design had steel clerestory roofs, which survive today (albeit heavily rusted) on the few remaining 60' cars. But why would you expect this car to match the 500-serries cars? Those cars were built by St. Louis Car Co. in 1940 and were 70' cars, not 60' as this car is.



"Ding, ding, din... We have a winner!!!" Built by the Portsmouth, Va., car shop in 1910, modernized 1944, and was an unusual length... 83'3" in 1910 was unusually long, with Pullman steel cars running about a foot shorter.

Thanks to ETA, Tim, and Jerry, for the info regarding the #6450, Norfolk, and #96210!

Regarding the identity of the #96210--

According to the CCR database, the Cotton Belt only acquired two 12S-1DR sleepers, both of which were Plan #2410:

Forestport (Lot #3881)

Ossining (Lot #3949)

Both were withdrawn from Pullman lease in May 1954.

To SSW MW 96209.



to SSW MW 96211.

Thanks, Jerry, for the info!

The plot thickens...

If the Forestport and Ossining became SSW MW #96209 and #96211 respectively, then where did the #96210 come from??

Another survivor (and a mystery at that):

277. ENTX #102 (this is one of the sleepers that was converted by the US Air Force for use as a flight simulator, of which there were at least two)--can anyone provide the identity/history of this car??--anyone know what ENTX stands for and which group is located in Bluefield, WV??--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=683037 (Jay Tester photo)

Source:

1. Picture located via Jerry LaBoda's photo links website at: http://passcarphotos.info/

ENTX was used for the EnterTRAINment Line dinner train that formerly operated on the Maryland Midland. Finding out what the car's former number was will be needed if we are to identify which Pullman was rebuilt into it since the number "102" is not the number it would have carried as a DAFX car. Cars were generally numbered from 5 to 31 and also had a second car that I believe served as a generator - dorm - kitchen for the staff. There is also one on the Great Smoky Mtn. Rwy. with no number but the rest of the DAFX lettering is in place. It is used as a machine shop. If numbers for either car can be determined I can find out their history.

Hard to say why the car was in Bluefield... it is the only shot of the car and there is not any sort of museum up there, at least not that I have found as of yet.

I am pretty sure this is not Bluefield. The car is coupled on the right to the former PRR business car 7528 which was named "Catoctin" while in residence at the Maryland Midland as part of the EnterTrainment fleet. I think both of these cars went to the short lived Chesapeake Railroad (Greensboro, MD) and the business car later turned up at the Aberdeen, Carolina & Western. I would guess the photo is somewhere around Greensboro, MD, on the Chesapeake Railroad (PRR Easton Branch). The next photo in the photographer's album shows the business car and what appears to be the front end of the Chesapeake Railroad's Whitcomb locomotive. The album suggests the photographer used Bluefield as a default location for many of his pictures.

Alan Maples

Not only that, the guy has lots of photos default-dated as "Dec. 31, 2007" and uploaded in March 2007, meaning he uploaded them before he took them, including shots of Metroliners, T&P 610, C&O 2716, and N&W 611 and 1218 in action. The Metroliner is supposedly in Bluefield as well. So we can disregard almost any date and location this guy used unless you get lucky and can confirm otherwise.

I'm 99% certain that both the Catoctin and flight simulator photos were taken not on the Chesapeake RR, but on the Maryland Midland at Union Bridge, Md. before the EnterTrainMent rolling stock was sold off/dispersed/moved. I hate to say I "recognize" the piles of junk in the photos, but I'm having flashbacks, and Brother Payne, who had PRR Catalpa Falls there for a while, can also confirm my suspicions.

As I recall, the owners of these cars had stenciled on one or both ends during shipment "IF FOUND PLEASE DROP IN NEAREST MAILBOX OR CALL [name, phone #]".

It is a pain and a bit confusing at times but I still prefer RRPA over anything else. Since Flickr has gone to the perpetual search page it has become a real nightmare to do searches since it only loads a small number of images at a time, making a person to wait until the images are loaded and you view the new addition before loading more. It often overwhelms my 'puter and on longer pages slows down to a crawl as I wait on the next set of images to load. (Bmail search is the same way but for some reason it doesn't hang my 'puter up like Flickr does.)

Correction:

I forgot earlier on in this thread (page #9) to give Francois Xavier Martin a line item number, now listed as #278.

"Where Are They Now?" Cars:

Just to make sense of it all, I've added line item numbers to these cars.

279. Centburne (Lot #6205, Plan #3979A, 1928, 8S-1DR-2C, SOO)--sold to SOO #1257 (1948) to Jack Stodelle #1257 (1967) to Jack Stodelle-Bob Berray #1257 Maria Elena, painted as Sonora Baja California, and used for excursions in Mexico to PSRM #1257 (1989)--according to the PSRM website (http://www.sdrm.org/roster/passenger/sl-1257/), as of 1999 the #1257 was still located in Mexicali for excursions--can anyone provide an update??--is the #1257 still in Mexicali, or has it moved elsewhere??--see here: http://www.sdrm.org/roster/passenger/sl-1257/sl1257-1.jpg (Corrine Gallagher photo)

280. Van Cortlandt (Lot #6371, Plan #3987, 1930, bag-buf-plr, SOU)--sold to SOU and converted to business car #2 (1945) to PC #1 to C&NW #402 Iowa--does anybody know the current status??--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/rspicture.aspx?id=216818 and here: http://www.cnwhs.org/memberphotos/albums/userpics/10025/Business%20Car%20%23402%20Bertram%2C%20ia..jpg (C&NW Historical Society photo)

281. Mt. Thielsen (Lot #4998, Plan #3521A, 1926, 10S-lng-obs, L&N)--sold to L&N (1948) converted to business car #375 (1949?) to C&NW #401 (3rd) (1982) to #401 Chicago (1985) to UP (1995) to Fleming Company (1998)--does anybody know the current status??

The following are two pictures taken by Marty Bernard of the #401 in the Western Ave. Coach Yard in Chicago, in September 1989 (the dome next to the #401 is ex-MILW #53, now owned by the Friends of 261):

a. http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=905865

b. http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=905866

282. National Road (Lot #4885, Plan #3951L, 1925, bag-buf-club-lng-barber, built for National Limited)--used by B&O as an upholstery/paint shop and foreman's office in Chicago between June 1944 and May 1947, when it was sold to General Motors for use as an office car with the Train of Tomorrow, painted in the same scheme. It was later used by GM/EMD as a training car. It later ended up in private ownership/display, painted in a tone of Tuscan Red with BALTIMORE & OHIO in the letterboard.

Painted for use with the Train of Tomorrow: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/emd_school.jpg (North East Rails photo)

At some point under private ownership, it was parked in Rocky River, OH, with at least one PS stainless-sheathed lightweight, with a set of steps at one end for access. Does anyone know the identity of this other car??

http://rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-nr-r.jpg (Fallen Flags photo)

http://rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-cbnr-abr.jpg (Fallen Flags photo)

At some other point, it was on display without the lightweight.

http://rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-combine-r.jpg (Fallen Flags photo)

This last photo was used by Nathaniel Guest (user handle "N.C. Guest") when he posted a thread back in 2010 titled "Searching for Heavyweights" in which he inquired about the current location of the National Road. I had linked to his thread back on page #3 of this thread, and here's the link again: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30147

283. Harriet (Lot #6087, Plan #3416A, 1927, 1DR-plr [28 seats], LV)--sold to LV #1553 (1940) to MofW tool car #94061 (1965) to Conrail #45718 to Anthracite Railroads Hist. Soc. to Southern RR of NJ and stored at Winslow Junction, NJ

This car was the subject of this thread: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30223, in which the possible scrapping of the car by SRNJ was discussed. Does anyone know if this car has yet been scrapped, or is still in storage??

a. In storage, May 2006: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=403342 (Sean McDonnell photo)

b. In storage, January 2010: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1932659 (Bill Rogerson photo)

c. In storage, December 2010: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2342927 (Joe Scherbenco photo)

284. Barberton (2nd) (Lot #4762, Plan #3410, 12S-1DR, PRR)--sold to PRR #8729 (1948) to MofW bunk #493043 (1961) to PC to CR to NS??--according to the PRR extant passenger car list on http://www.altoonaworks.info/, the Barberton is now owned by Antis Salvage and stored in the west receiving yard in Altoona, sans trucks. Does anybody know if this car is still stored in Altoona, or has it been scrapped??

285. Lake Laura (Lot #4817, Plan #3585A, 1924, 10S-1DR-2C)--sold to PRR #8664 (1948) to MofW bunk #493821 (1965) to PC to CR--anyone know the current status/location??--see here: http://railpixs.com/conrail/exPRRcoach_MassillonOh_Oct87.jpg

Sources:

1. Pictures located via Jerry LaBoda's photo links website at: http://passcarphotos.info/

2. Information from Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database at: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

Mystery Cars:

Back on page #3 of this thread:

86. The Track 29 development in Yakima, WA, which was recently demolished, included a restaurant which utilized three heavyweight sleepers. Two of the cars were ex-UP (Pelham, line item no. 83, and Douglas Fir, line item no. 78). The third car was ex-NP, and I still haven't been able to find any info on this car's identity. Does anyone know the identity of this car?? Has anyone written down any name(s) visible on the side or taken any photos??

87. UP still utilizes some of the cars assigned by SP to winter MofW duties on the Natron Cutoff (Cascade Summit), including SPMW #7118, a 12S-1DR sleeper (I don't know the name), which was recently (several years ago) painted into UP colors and is based at Klamath Falls, OR--does anyone know the identity of this car??--seen here at the UP shop in Seattle: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2238107 (Marty Bernard photo)

Back on page #6, Stephen S. Syfrett mentioned these two cars (line item nos. 286 and 287):



Also on page #6:

288. The West Virginia Central owns a Plan #3521 10S-lng-obs (as #120) whose identity remains unknown. The WVC website says it was formerly owned by the White River Scenic as #1, which was formerly SP business car #110 Los Angeles. This is not the case, as this linked thread discusses: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31717. Does anyone know the identity of this car??

289. The same thread mentions another heavyweight which was formerly "Kennickell's Pullman Palace" in Richmond, which was for sale at some point. Apparently it was also a Plan #3521 10S-lng-obs. Does anyone know the identity of this car??

Back on page #2, shaymech mentioned this car:

73. SOU (GS&F) baggage #6462--NCTM

Back on page #9:

290. There is at least one heavyweight sleeper at the museum in Puebla, Mexico, but from the one photograph I found I can't make out the name--http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2668/3689817889_0ebd8c152f_o.jpg (Raul Harrison photo)--anyone know the history??

Back on page #10:

239. B&O MofW #X4055 (12S-1DR) at the B&O RR Museum--anyone have the full history??--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=327923 (Jonathan Ferraro photo)

240. N&W 12S-1DR owned by Bay Coast RR (Cape Charles, VA)--anyone know the history of this car??--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=679644 (William Grimes photo), here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2692228 (Jonathan Ferraro photo), and here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3413817 (Marty Bernard photo)

241. B&O 10S-buf-lng-obs in storage in Hamburg, PA--anyone know the identity of this car, and who it belongs to??--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=558599 (Stephen Bradley photo)

291. 14S sleeper to Cadillac & Lake City to Limon Heritage Museum & Railroad Park--anyone here know the identity of this car??--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2287490 (Richard Olson photo)

Back on page #11:

292. According to Jerry LaBoda's website, this is a Plan #2585 10S-1DR-2C, which entered MP MofW service as #X3488 and is now in Wagoner, OK.

a. In August 2011, end view: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3483939 (Bob McGilvray photo)

b. In August 2011, side view: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3483938 (Bob McGilvray photo)

293. According to Jerry LaBoda's website, this is also a Plan #2585 10S-1DR-2C, which entered MP MofW service as #X3646 and is still used by UP, in Armour Yellow paint.

a. At Bald Knob, AR, in October 2008: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2065271 (Bryant Mills photo)

b. Fresh coat of paint at Bald Knob in June 2011: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2585698 (Allan Williams, Jr. photo)

Anyone on here have info on the history of these two Mopac cars??

Also on page #11:

294. According to Jerry LaBoda's website, this is an ex-PRR 12S-1DR that was used in MofW service, later went to PC, and is now owned by New Century Rail Transport as NCBX #6120--as of 2006, it was stored on Letterykenny Army Depot in Chambersburg, PA--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=488930 (Rob Taylor photo)--anyone know the identity of this car??

On page #12:

271. PC #27042--according to Jerry LaBoda's website, this is a Plan #3989 8S-buf-sol-lng-obs--does anybody know the history of this car??--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3156056 (William Wilson photo)

Third post down on this page:

295. SSW MW #96210--according to Jerry LaBoda's website (listed under #90210, window pattern confirms it is the same car in both photos), this is a 12S-1DR--anyone know the history of this car??

a. In Texarkana in 1975: http://abpr.railfan.net/january00/01-01-00/sswmw_98210_hw_pullman_12-x_texarkana_1975.jpg (Tim O'Connor photo) (click once to enlarge)

b. In Denver in January 2012: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2918031 (Alex Gillman photo)

Ninth post down on this page:

277. ENTX #102 (this is one of the sleepers that was converted by the US Air Force for use as a flight simulator)--can anyone provide the identity/history of this car??--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=683037 (Jay Tester photo)

Sources:

1. Pictures located via Jerry LaBoda's photo links website at: http://passcarphotos.info/

2. Information from Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database at: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm