Hello,

Excuse me if this was posted earlier..........

I came across a few videos of the 614 being moved out of Port Clinton to VA an January 14th. It is interesting that this was done at night.

Since she is all roller bearing, one greasing is enough to get her to VA? Since this was a dedicated move, do the crews check rod bearing temps periodically or is it just another "load of freight"? Perhaps with roller rods its a non-issue?

I am still impressed with forging and machining, as well as the look of Timken roller rods. One you get up close to them, they are massive. Having this steel whirling at 80 MPH is a feightening thought. As for size, to illustrate my point....check out photo 11.jpg (N&W 611) at the following site....very impressive.

http://www.lerroproductions.com/norfolkwestern.html

Regards,

Randy

Randy,

The recent dead-in tow move of 614 from Reading,Pa. to Roanoke,Va. was done mostly at night as that's how it worked out based on other higher priority traffic upon the railroad. It was a "company" move done free of charge by NS as one of the ways they are showing their support for the VMT.

The Timken equipped side rods are oiled about every thousand miles or so and have always been trouble free.

Scott Lindsay escorted the move and he and his crew periodicly checked on her occassionaly enroute when she was stopped for crew changes etc. Everything ran cool as a cucumber.

Ross Rowland

I saw mention somewhere that the move was restricted to 25 mph.

Was there any particular reason?

Hello, Randy and Ross;

I had the chance to talk to one Bob Tracey recently (he only lives a couple of miles or so from me), and he commented that one of the amazing things about 614 is how light its rods are for their size and strength. He said he and three others could easily lift a main rod for installation, and side rods were lighter.

The last years of steam development saw some things done with with the technology that are still amazing, or at least should be.

Two that come to mind (and both of which involve modern rods and associated running gear) involve two notable postwar locomotive designs for rival roads--the Pennsylvania's radical T1 duplex drive 4-4-4-4s, and the somewhat more conservative but still handsome and ultimately amazing S-1 4-8-4s, the famous Niagaras.

The Pennsy T1s were flawed giants, perhaps compromised by a combination of too many changes in design at once (duplex drive, poppet valves), failing company finances, the diesel development, and crews who were not as familiar with divided drive engines as they should have been. Materals rediscovered relatively recently on tests of two these locomotives the C&O suggest the reported difficulties these engines had on this other road may have been exagerated; I am personally of the opinion that C&O engineers, coming from freight service as was typical on most roads, were very familiar with handling divided drive engines on a road so dominated by 2-6-6-2s, 2-8-8-2s, and 2-6-6-6s.

On the Pennsy itself there was certainly no doubt that the boiler steamed exceptionally well, and there is at least one report of a terminal to terminal run with a duplex with an average speed (i.e., including stops) in the 90 mph range. Reportedly mechanics on the Pennsy complained about excessive maintenance on the poppet valve gear--and claimed this came from running in speeds in the 140 mph range. This may well be exagerated.

What does not seem to be exagerated are high-speed slip tests with the Niagaras. Steam locomotive balancing was as much art as science, and it was not unusual to have to change balancing that wasn't right the first time, a notable example being Atlantic Coast Line's beautiful and massive Baldwin 4-8-4s which turned out to be rough on track hauling the passenger trains they were meant to pull. This sort of possibility is why the NYC ran a slip test with a new Niagara.

This test consisted of fitting up a 4-8-4 with high-speed movie cameras focused on the drivers, some additional paint markings on the drivers for the cameras to photograph, and then running the engine at 80 mph onto a section of track that had been coated with grease, inducing a high-speed slip. Supposedly the drivers spun at a rate equivelent to well over 140 mph with no wheel lift. That's well into modern high-speed rail range, and if that was so, the NYC and Alco had a wonderful blancing job in those engines. It's too bad none were saved.

The report on the C&O tests of the PRR T1 was originally in the May 2005 edition of the C&O HS newsletter; this used to be online, but is no longer available.

C&O 614 at speed is available on YouTube, however. Oh, Ross, you have a magnificent locomotive. . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rmKYGEicP4

http://www.youtube.com/user/typebangin# ... IAqX0Lddfc

Speaking of steam at speed means a look at this clip of the UP's 844. What's notable about this is how easily the engine is working at high speed--short cut-off with the valve gear near center, light, almost smoke-free fire, almost no exhaust noise, suggesting a light throttle. The rod bearings are the most noticeable sound. It's almost as if the engine were running downhill, but I'm not sure that's the case here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl736E_V ... re=channel

Enjoy.

I believe the high-speed wheel slip tests you refer to were run using a NYC 4-6-4, not a 4-8-4, and at 164 (revised from 140) there was a small amount of wheel lift. I can't locate the source right now, but I'll keep looking. I did find a post from Hudson5432 that stated that it was 164 mph and a J3a was used. NYC fans, how about it??

FWIW, the Niagara was tested in almost microscopic detail, and the test report survives at NYCSHS archives. It's a very informative piece of work.

Thanks for the mention of the PRR T1 test on C&O. Sorry to hear the web copy was removed. It used to be at findarticles.com.

Gents,

The dead-in-tow move was restricted to 25 mph as the main rods were removed so as to inactivate the valve gear and pistons which rely on the steam to bring them thier lubrication. With the mains off the engine the dynamic balance is thrown out and at speeds much higher that 40 or so you risk heavily pounding the track structure. At 25 or so she rides like a top of the line baby carriage.

Yes, J3A-614 I agree there's few things more appealing/fascinating then an iron horse at full gallop with her ears pinned back and all the machinery working as God and man intended. As I believe it was the late great David P. Morgan wrote the steam locomotive is the closest thing to a living being that man ever created. I agree.

Those helicopter shots show us coming east at track speed on the NJT Port Jervis line , where the speed limit on that stretch is 79mph. We did that for sure.

As to which of the two 4-8-4's ( 611&614) is the " better" engine I learned long ago the HARD WAY never to compare ladies...no matter what!! They're both great machines and I'm very grateful they both escaped the scrappers torch!!

Perhaps one day we'll see them face off on the Blue Ridge or Allegheny Mountain with identical tonnage trains and see who gets to the summit first?? Then, perhaps we'd have some basis for a discussion of superiority???

Stranger things have happened!!

Ross Rowland

Hello J3a-614,

Thank you for your thoughts.

Your comments on the lightweight feature of roller rods are interesting as I recall doing some research in years past. Perhaps the lightest of all the roller rods would be the tandem pair of rods connecting axle 2 to 3. If you section these, the "I" beam section is very narrow. The broad side view is deceiving!

Your comments on modern steam are also interesting. The Niagara is my personal favorite. The T-1 is very impressive but in the case of the Niagara, I recall it was a culmination of the art but not radical.......a rock solid platform built for durability and low maintenance. I believe their were claims the Niagara’s reached a peak service use of 25,000 miles per month between Harmon, NY & Chicago while they were briefly with us. This type of performance was due to many factors done right......well kept mainline, streamlined maintenance facilities and practices, a network of high speed (80 MPH) track pans for water scooping, etc., etc.....all adding up to astounding but reliable daily service.

As for the T-1's poppet valves, the comment with high speed and cam operated valves may have merit. I do know with large high speed stationary recip engines in the 2 MW range you need to be very careful with engine governing as to minimize the impact of over speeding, especially when you remove large block loads. Over speeding can cause excessive valve seating velocities, basically "slamming" the valve on the seats....but at a high frequency. Cam profile design is important in these cases.

There is a current poppet valve locomotive maintained in preservation in the UK, the 71000, "Duke of Gloucester". Plus this is a triple cylinder. I cannot comment on how expensive it is to maintain the Duke but it is surely a performer as you can see in the attached

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKGkBpwoqag

The Duke has distinctive high speed gate which sounds similar to an old Alco diesel 4-stroke engine under heavy load!

Attached is an interesting web site that describes the "British" Caprotti valve gear used on the Duke. Apparently the British designers modified the core Caprotti gear design.

http://www.dukeofgloucester.co.uk/?page=British%20Caprotti%20Valve%20Gear

If you read the history of the Duke, it was saved from the Berry scrap yard and was very far gone at that point.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/4030146788/

The Duke was a "one-off" design and an original design flaw that hampered the performance when originally built was remedied at restoration. The Duke performs now better now in preservation than it did in regular service. The Duke also has variable valve actuation which is now starting to be used in commercial diesel engines and spark ignite automotive engines.....computer controlled of course! The Duke also could reduce cut-off to as low as 3%.

As for balancing, did I recall you can precisely balance a 3-cylinder locomotive to eliminate the overbalance weights on classic 2-cylinders? If this was achieved on the Duke, that engine is very easy on the track structure, even at very high speeds.

As for the NYC slip tests, in earlier years, they may have had a similar article in the Central Headlight (a publication of the NYCHS). Did I recall they actually did lift the axle in an older J3 or other loco? I had not heard about the Niagara slip tests, but the non-lift as a demonstration of the fine balancing.

As for undocumented speeds of the T-1 & Niagara, there have been stories passed on but it is interesting to think of what happened in the midst of daily service when they were a bit off the timetable!

Domestically, with the Niagara gone, the C&O 614 & the N&W 611, represent the state of the art and its good that they will be presented together in VA.

Thanks again.

Regards,

Randy

The steam water pumping station at Hamilton, Ontario has a very early variable cam actuated poppet valve installation - the museum built around it is well worth the visit. It does raise the question about why what was proven in stationary engines by 1850 was never generally accepted in moving engines. Perhaps it was a matter of operating speed and roughness of service butting heads against state of the art metallurgy at the time?

dave

As a proud member of the 96-98 Erie Limited crew, my only comment to that would be "perhaps more than that." Both you and Paul handled the train beautifully.

Best of luck with the new effort! Many of your old crew members still have our red hats on the shelf and a bag packed that's waiting by the door. I hope we get a call to report for duty again.

Gee, I do next to nothing and I get compliments from all around for mentioning what modern steam can do! This tells us a great deal about the appeal of these late steam engines, about which no one will argue with me--nor I with them!

Randy Musselman's comments on the Duke of Gloucester's sound (and the video clip you provided was great, as is the Settle & Carlisle line itself) reminded me that I had seen a YouTube slide show with a T1 soundtrack. I forget the original sound source (and I wonder what I did with the disc I bought with this), but the thing that stood out about the sound was a combination of an in-step, out-of-step exhaust (like a simple articulated, no surprise there), but with a sharper tone to it. To my ears, it reminded me of a Baldwin diesel switcher I used to see on the Pennsylvania in my childhood in Wheeling, W.Va., on a local freight; I don't know my Baldwin models very well, but I do remember a builder's plate with a date of 1947 (hey, this diesel dated to the steam age!), and four exhaust stacks that blew in sequence with the slow-turning Baldwin engine.

Here is the YouTube slide show:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6HTHcouKu4

T1 footage, looks like the St. Louis area:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3PARLMJB5M

Finally, I have to include this PRR promotional film from 1946; there are a lot of interesting things in it, including Huylett unloading action at 13:50 or so, but for this discussion, our T1s appear just after a tribute to employees at 14:41. Of course, if we were to believe the editing job, T1s pulled trains out of Penn Station in New York!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPSg3xEOUxo

Enjoy.