It is currently Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:17 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Steam up the Rotary!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:29 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:30 am
Posts: 150
In the 1970s, the Cumbres & Toltec Scenic Railroad ran a few rotary specials. I was pleased to ride and photograph two of these, and now present two photo-essays of my photos:

http://railroadglorydays.com/Rotary
http://railroadglorydays.com/RotaryOY

Glen Brewer
RailroadGloryDays.com
http://railroadglorydays.com


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Steam up the Rotary!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:06 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:58 am
Posts: 728
Thanks for sharing this, Glen. As one who has never been around a live rotary, these photos are both impressive and beautiful.

I liked the tale of the man on the telegraph pole, LOL.

Steve Hunter
Cardinal, Ontario


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Steam up the Rotary!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:38 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:57 am
Posts: 2413
Location: Faulkland, Delaware
The third photo down shows some device on the top of the stack of the 483. I'm assuming it's some sort of induced draft fan for firing up?

_________________
Tom Gears
Wilmington, DE

If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Steam up the Rotary!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:35 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:05 am
Posts: 103
Liked the photos thank you for sharing.I was wondering if the rotary has the same boiler regulations as a locomotive?
Thank You
Al


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Steam up the Rotary!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:39 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:05 am
Posts: 173
Location: Albuquerque, NM
tomgears wrote:
The third photo down shows some device on the top of the stack of the 483. I'm assuming it's some sort of induced draft fan for firing up?

Yup. It looks like a modified "cyclone" type ventilation fan, kind of like what one would use to clear smoke or hazardous gases out of an enclosed space (they're called "red devil blowers" in the Navy). If that's what it is, then it's certainly well suited for the job; I don't remember what the CFM rating was for one of those suckers, but it's definitely enough to create a draft in a K-36!

_________________
Helping this grand dame get running again:
http://www.nmslrhs.org/


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Steam up the Rotary!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:41 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:30 am
Posts: 150
alzubal wrote:
I was wondering if the rotary has the same boiler regulations as a locomotive?
Thank You
Al


Thank you for your comments.

It is my understanding that these machines are not locomotives and therefore do not fall under the FRA rules, but they may fall under inspections and rules of other regulatory bodies.

Glen
http://RailroadGloryDays.com


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Steam up the Rotary!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:43 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5671
Glen -

Great photo stories. Thanks for posting. Rotary OM is painted gray whereas rotary OY is painted boxcar red. Were these standard maintenance-of-way paint schemes on the D&RGW at different times in their railroad careers? Or does the C&TS just use the boxcar red scheme, but not the Rio Grande?

Les


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Steam up the Rotary!
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:52 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:30 am
Posts: 150
Les,

Thanks for your comments.

Yes, the red is the older D&RGW MOW paint scheme mostly replaced with gray by the 1940s. I believe OY is currently gray also. It has been pointed out that the red is inappropriate because the tender was replaced since the red scheme was used.

Glen
http://RailroadGloryDays.com


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Steam up the Rotary!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:54 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 905
https://www.facebook.com/DRG168/videos/ ... =2&theater


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Steam up the Rotary!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:35 pm 

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:04 pm
Posts: 152
This is very exciting indeed! I have never seen a live rotary so really looking forward to it. I am on the list for tickets but several hundred people are ahead of me.

This brings me back to a subject that I have always wondered about. This rotary special is a special train with ticket prices likely to go into the stratosphere. As someone who can not afford these steep prices is it rude or unprofessional to photograph or video the train along side the right of way as it goes by? I have never been on a photo freight but I would imagine you would be getting a lot of mean looks from the paying passengers if you were filming the same train they paid so much for. Any thoughts?

Also I am not talking about actually joining the group as they get off the train. I am talking about filming the train as it goes through the country side.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Steam up the Rotary!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:40 pm 

Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 726
Location: Bucks County, PA
Tom F wrote:
This brings me back to a subject that I have always wondered about. This rotary special is a special train with ticket prices likely to go into the stratosphere. As someone who can not afford these steep prices is it rude or unprofessional to photograph or video the train along side the right of way as it goes by? I have never been on a photo freight but I would imagine you would be getting a lot of mean looks from the paying passengers if you were filming the same train they paid so much for. Any thoughts?

Also I am not talking about actually joining the group as they get off the train. I am talking about filming the train as it goes through the country side.


It honestly depends on the event. With "traditional" photo charters, if you're standing at grade crossings while the train is being ferried to and from shots, then it's not that big of a deal, in my mind. If you're trying to hike in and join a photo line - or joining a photo line at said crossing - that's another story.

Since this is a special charter, with the rotary, I don't know if it will work the same way as traditional charters. I can imagine charter participants travelling by road to different spots, so you may not get to see this one. I could be totally wrong though, I'm just speculating.

_________________
Big Jim Video Productions
Morrisville, PA

http://www.bigjimvideo.com/home.html
http://www.youtube.com/user/bigjim4life


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Steam up the Rotary!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:53 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:28 pm
Posts: 238
bigjim4life wrote:
Tom F wrote:
This brings me back to a subject that I have always wondered about. This rotary special is a special train with ticket prices likely to go into the stratosphere. As someone who can not afford these steep prices is it rude or unprofessional to photograph or video the train along side the right of way as it goes by? I have never been on a photo freight but I would imagine you would be getting a lot of mean looks from the paying passengers if you were filming the same train they paid so much for. Any thoughts?

Also I am not talking about actually joining the group as they get off the train. I am talking about filming the train as it goes through the country side.


It honestly depends on the event. With "traditional" photo charters, if you're standing at grade crossings while the train is being ferried to and from shots, then it's not that big of a deal, in my mind. If you're trying to hike in and join a photo line - or joining a photo line at said crossing - that's another story.

Since this is a special charter, with the rotary, I don't know if it will work the same way as traditional charters. I can imagine charter participants travelling by road to different spots, so you may not get to see this one. I could be totally wrong though, I'm just speculating.


The word I've heard is that they will have permission to close the road up Cumbres Pass, so you either pay for the trip, or you don't see it after it leaves Chama. It ends up being a bus charter to transport the photographers between the spots, and there certainly isn't anywhere to park busses on the side of the side of the road if there is anything resembling significant snowfall. Also eliminates the issues that happened in the early 90s where cars got windshields destroyed by flying pieces of ice up at Coxo.

For this one, you either pay whatever the price ends up being (which I'm sure will be astronomically high compared to most events since they have to pay for restoring the thing), or just wait for the inevitable flood of photos and videos from it.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Steam up the Rotary!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:46 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:51 pm
Posts: 127
Location: Massachusetts
I think the big misconception that's out there about this event is that the railroad is "sponsoring" it. Sponsoring = paying for it. That's not the case here.

The railroad believes there is enough potential customer base out there that will pay to see and photograph the operation, so they are planning to OFFER it, but it's the folks who pony up the cash who are actually going to SPONSOR it.

Figure 2-3 days with 2-3 locomotives and the rotary.....essentially the cost of 4 locomotives per day. Recently, the railroad has been charging about $10,000/day per locomotive, so figure $40K per day plus support expenses (crew, support trains, maintenance etc.) is the cost that must be defrayed. The operation will likely have a stout, 6-figure price tag and the railroad knows that if it can be seen and photographed for free, they won't be able to sell enough tickets at the required price to recover the money. Obviously, people who are willing to pay the required price are going to want a controlled event, as opposed to the bedlam that has been seen during the recent Big-Boy tour.

So unlike the events back in the 90s, this won't be something people can just show up and chase. Even those with the required funds might not be able to attend, if their number in line is not sufficiently low. Given that it will basically be a private party, it will be interesting to see how the event is perceived from a PR perspective when all is said and done.

/Kevin Madore


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Steam up the Rotary!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:39 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:04 pm
Posts: 152
Thanks for the replies. I already know this will be sold out as I signed up to be on the mailing list probably around 6 months ago. I received a E-mail saying I was something like 347th on the waiting list. I can only imagine that number has tripled since 6 months has gone by.

As far as shutting down Cumbres Pass. The railroad does not own or maintain that road. It's a public highway. Even if they did, I couldn't even begin to imagine the back lash from the general public when you tell them they need to drive possibly hundreds of miles to go to points North East due to a railroad photo charter. I have driven the alternative route, on HWY 64, from Tierra Amarilla to Tres Piedras, and it was such a poorly maintained highway I nearly debated turning around and going back the way I came halfway through. At night time it was nerve racking experience. I didn't see a single car the entire length of that highway.

I do like the idea of a bus charter. I think that is a great idea. People would pay a premium to ride the train and to get the remote photo pictures. The others could take a bus to locations along side the road to film the train as it goes by for a lower price.

$40,000 a day for expenses. What??? That's $4,000 a hour for a 10 hour shift or $1,000 dollars ever 15 minutes. I know the crew isn't making that much because I sat down and talked to them over lunch a few weeks ago and most were in the $13.00-$15.00 range. I did a interview with the Georgetown loop earlier this year and they wanted to pay mechanics $12.00 a hour! They did say they gave you $20.00 for gas if you live in Denver.

Coal has become almost a worthless commodity and currently hovering around $30.00-$70.00 a ton depending on grade. I rode then train the entire route from Antonito to Chama and we never took coal after leaving Antonito. So costs for a 10 hour excursion should be somewhere around $600.00 for coal, water costs nothing or very little, labor for 20 people at $18.00 a hour (average from $15.00-$23.00 hr) $3,600. I will throw in another $2,000 for hotels, and other expenses. So approx $6,200 dollars for a 10 hour day or around $620 dollars a hour which seems accurate.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Steam up the Rotary!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:02 am 

Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:51 pm
Posts: 127
Location: Massachusetts
Hi Tom,

Tom F wrote:
As far as shutting down Cumbres Pass. The railroad does not own or maintain that road. It's a public highway. Even if they did, I couldn't even begin to imagine the back lash from the general public when you tell them they need to drive possibly hundreds of miles to go to points North East due to a railroad photo charter.

The state apparently does have the ability to control traffic on the road for the purposes of maintaining public safety, and the bedlam that could result from a public rotary run could indeed become a public safety issue. The plan does not shut the road down completely. It would follow the protocols that are used during road construction, using pilot trucks to convoy waiting cars and trucks from one end of the event to the other. Vehicles under escort could not stop or park. Folks might have to wait a few minutes for a pilot truck, as they do now, when there is construction. But they would not have to seek alternate routes.

Tom F wrote:
I do like the idea of a bus charter. I think that is a great idea. People would pay a premium to ride the train and to get the remote photo pictures. The others could take a bus to locations along side the road to film the train as it goes by for a lower price.

Patrons will not be riding the rotary train. Not only are there serious safety issues with that, but at many locations on the hill, the railroad would not be permitted to put passengers on the ground because of private property issues. The bus is the only planned option.

Tom F wrote:
$40,000 a day for expenses. What??? That's $4,000 a hour for a 10 hour shift or $1,000 dollars ever 15 minutes. I know the crew isn't making that much because I sat down and talked to them over lunch a few weeks ago and most were in the $13.00-$15.00 range. I did a interview with the Georgetown loop earlier this year and they wanted to pay mechanics $12.00 a hour! They did say they gave you $20.00 for gas if you live in Denver.

The railroad has given every indication that they intend to run this event like a photo charter, and $10,000/day has been the going rate for a single steam locomotive. That's for one crew.....about 10 hrs running time. If you want 2 engines to re-create a couple of Cumbres Turns in a day, that's $20,000. As noted, the rotary will need at least 2 steam engines to push it up the 4%, and maybe 3. The rotary itself will cost as much as a steam locomotive, as it will be working harder than the engines that push it. In addition, a rotary train will require a lot more support personnel than a regular charter. It may even require an additional work train. The rotary run at White Pass in 2011 had 2 work trains with it, in addition to the rotary fleet. I've probably ridden a dozen charters on the C&TS in the last decade and unfortunately that's what it costs.

Tom F wrote:
Coal has become almost a worthless commodity and currently hovering around $30.00-$70.00 a ton depending on grade.

I'm sure that the railroad management wishes you'd explain that to their coal dealer! :)

/Kevin Madore


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


 Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 39 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: