1939 visit and the 1970s Visit of UK Equipment to the States

Joshua K. Blay · **Posted:** Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:34 am

In 1939, the LMS railway sent a locomotive and complete train over for exhibit and tour in association with New York World's Fair. Streamlined pacific 6229 Duchess of Hamilton was renamed and renumbered 6220 Coronation for that tour- the engine still survives and was in fact cosmetically restored to her streamlined condition. Due to WWII she and her train were stuck here after the after fair. Does anyone know where they were stored? In 1942 the decision was made to return the engine- needed for the war effort. Was the train stored in the same location and when were the carriages sent back and what became of them?

Later the Flying Scotsman was brought over to the states for a cross country tour, again with carriages. One or two I believe ended up in California, but does anyone know their total disposition? The tour ended as a financial disaster and I was wondering if the carriages had been auctioned off to pay debts.

Thanks ever so much,

Joshua

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:28 am

I can't speak for the 1939-42 junket, but the 4472 trip involved, in part, the "delivery" of British Pullman cars Lydia and Isle of Thanet to the National Railway Museum in Green Bay. The rest of the cars were five display cars and two support coaches, one a 1920 Pullman rebuilt in 1947 as a "beavertail" observation for the Devon Belle as #14; it supposedly started life as a London and North Western ambulance coach in 1918 before being converted by Pullman UK to a Pullman carriage in 1920. The latter car was used as a "business" or hospitality car for dignitaries and the like.

Lydia and Isle of Thanet were acquired from the NRM (for what was reported to be a private, six-figure-dollars transaction) and repatriated to the Swanage Railway in the UK in 2000:
http://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/news95.htm
Yet another car from Churchill's funeral train languished in California from 1965 to 2007, having made it well before Pegler and 4472:
http://www.transportbritain.co.uk/churc ... oject.html
http://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/news399.htm
http://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/news514.htm

The Devon Belle obs was repatriated to the Swanage Railway in 2007 and returned to operation in 2008:
http://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/news350.htm (includes photos in San Francisco)
http://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/news352.htm
http://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/news450.htm
According to this website, the obs was part of the Victoria Station corporate HQs in San Francisco; is that a photo of Randy Hees (misspelled) I see there?:
http://sanfranciscotrains.org/flying-sc ... ation.html

It is my understanding that the seven tour cars that made it to San Francisco and operated for a time on Fisherman's Wharf along with 4472 were eventually sold to the then-starting-up Victoria Station restaurant chain, although another online report says only four cars--two passenger cars and two baggage/exhibit cars--were ever actually used in the San Francisco location. Two of the display cars (listed as wooden baggage cars) were offered for sale out of Stockton, Ca. for $5K apiece in the November 1983 issue of Trains...... with photos of them still on original trucks.... online reports at TrainOrders.com and other places suggest that these particular two cars were obtained under perhaps mysterious circumstances, and were later scrapped in Sacramento, Ca.

Some more from http://www.semgonline.com/coach/coupe/coupe048.pdf :

Quote:

These would certainly be LNER design Gangwayed Passenger Brakes 104, 70497, 70632, 70636 and 70758 built to either Gresley or Thomson design converted to Exhibition Vans.
Several years ago I was able to confirm that three and possibly four of these were located at, Victoria Station Restaurant, 100 Universal Terrace Parkway, Universal City, Los Angeles, California 91608.
To quote from the letter I received from the restaurant in 1994? (letter undated and I omitted to put a receipt date on). "Our restaurant does have four of the cars from the Flying Scotsman, one of which is a dining car. The cars have been painted several times, so I hope the numbers are still correct.
They are E-42463, E-16501, E-16502 and E-32372. They have plaques with the letters "LB & SCR" on the sides as well". Although the numbers quoted do not make sense I have to conclude they were either numbers applied for operation on American Railroads or numbers applied when in restaurant use. It also implies the vehicles may have been substantially altered.
The note from Robin (Coupe News No.47) is particularly interesting.
My researches had led me to believe that these five carriages, along with BR Mark 1 BCK 21177 used as Flying Scotsman's support coach did end up in a scrapyard, possibly in the San Francisco.
Some of this six, possibly not all, then being sold on to a company called Victoria Station whom ran a chain of restaurants. My initial enquiries revealed that this company had gone out of business but it appears that at sometime, probably in 1993, their premises in Los Angeles were acquired by the new Victoria Station Restaurant. It may thus be, using Robins information that not all six vehicles survived and some at least were scrapped.

Randy Hees · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:05 pm

The solarium observation from the 1970's train was purchased by the Victoria Station chain, and used at their headquarters in San Francisco, as a conference room. When the chain failed, the building became Cnet headquarters, and the car was used as the "green room" The car was sitting on a its own wheels, with a glass structure tying it to the building... they cut a door way in the car's side.

When Cnet moved out, the owner of the building donated the car to the Swanage Railway. (http://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/) Chris Hart of San Francisco Trains (http://sanfranciscotrains.org/index.html) and I prepared and loaded the car for the Swanage group...

A year later we also prepared loaded a British baggage car, which was used in Churchill's funeral train, and ended up at a golf course in the LA area for shipment back to England.

I believe the other equipment purchased by the restaurant is gone.

Both cars have been restored to service by the Swanage Railway...

car57 · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:44 pm

Found this on Youtube and it shows the consist pretty well, sad that some seem to have got scrapped here, i would love a mark1 or a Gresley !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWDyOwfanmU

Mike Pannell
car 57 project
Cheyenne

Joshua K. Blay · **Posted:** Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:15 am

Just found this- from the September/October issue of the UK based The Railway Magazine.

The LMS Coronation Scot train was given to the United States and presented to the Quartermaster Corps for use as living quarters for the Army in Jeffersonville, IN. The eight vehicles include a first-class coach, lounge, dining car, sleeping saloon, kitchen (which can serve over 200 meals at one sitting) and third class dining car. The deed of transfer to the government was executed for B&O President R.B. White on behalf of the LMS.

According to the same article, the train went on a tour 3,121 mile tour prior.

Some answers, some more questions. Where was the tour itself and what became of the train?

Joshua