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 Post subject: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:44 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5360
There is a new 9-8-11 posting in FLIMSIES about a story in the Louisville Courier-Journal reporting that the Flying Duchess has been moved to La Grange, Kentucky. La Grange is rather famous for two blocks of ex-L&N (now CSX) street running right through the towns business section. The little 0-6-0T is being moved to a track next to the old train depot just east of that street running. The organization making the move of the engine is the Ohio Valley Railroad Historical Foundation and they also apparently are planning on moving a L&N caboose to the depot site. Flying Duchess was last reported as being stored in Louisville, Ketucky and at that site was also reported to be a restored Nashville, Chattanooga & St. Louis "yellow striped" 40' steel box car. The question is, what happened to that car? Is it also eventually going to La Grange or........?

Les


Last edited by Les Beckman on Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:17 pm 

Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 11:27 am
Posts: 434
Location: Switching the Coach Yard
What is going to happen to the boxcar is something of a "soap opera" right at the moment. "As the boxcar turns....." Currently the car is off its trucks and somewhat forlorn. The owner has overstayed their welcome and generally pissed off the owner of the property that the car is on. Plus its not an L&N tea kettle or Santa Fe CF-7 so the current owner couldn't care less, apparently.


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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:02 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2528
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Les,

Let me try to be a bit more productive and less on the ad hominem comments than "eta altos" whomever he/she/it is.

The boxcar you speak of is on the property of Adkins Company. They specialize in machinery moves and export packing. Their website, with appropriate contact information is here:

http://www.adkinsinc.com/

The boxcar is/was owned by KRM. It was cosmetically restored at South Louisville in the 1980s.

Les, my guess is that a qualified organization, such as HVRM could have the car rather easily. Of course, the real issue, is moving it. In fact, I would encourage any qualified museum that has a need/desire for the boxcar, resources, and a plan to move it to contact the two parties. Perhaps Mr. "etalcos" can even step up since he's so in-tune and so knowledgeable.

I was involved at KRM for 12 years before I moved out of the area. I realize the organization has flaws/problems much like any other organization. If you ask me, I'm rather honest about them. However, I abstain from being too critical of other organizations that I am not involved with, as we face all the same challenges. It is more productive than sniping at other organizations, hiding behind a fake name on forums. Unlike "etalcos" I don't hide behind a fake name for my posts and comments.

David Wilkins

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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:27 pm 

Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 11:27 am
Posts: 434
Location: Switching the Coach Yard
David,

I'll stand by the comments, and can expand on the issues if desired. The car needs to be saved, but then that's why KRM acquired it initially, correct? I'm sorry that my anonymity offends you, but apparently my comments hit close enough to reality to elicit your response. We do all face similar challanges. We are graded in the court of public opinion and peer opinion based on how we handle the challenges. My opinion is that for the small fortune that has been spent on the CF-7 while the E-6 (or Jim Crow combine, or L&N/NC&STL coaches, or NC&StL box car, or steam derrick, or steam pile driver, or Monon passenger cars, or Pearl River, or *insert locally relevant equipment here*) rots is a crock of crap. Where in Kentucky was the line that ATSF owned? MKT coaches, ATSF diners, and on and on.... In some ways KRM looks more like the Kansas Railroad Museum.

And before we start on the BS of the CF-7 being a "necessity", I've seen much L&N power come and go In the time they've owned that unit that would have done just as good of a job and with a minimal amount of creativity could have been theirs. I realize that every organization will from time to time have equipment that isn't relative, sometimes out of fate or need, but its generally a small portion of their collection. Perhaps you can explain to us why (outside of the "tea kettle") money never seems to make it to the locally relevant equipment, but seems to be there for the locally irrelevant equipment? Is there in fact a good reason I've missed?

One of two E-6s left. The only L&N passenger motor left. And it doesn't even rate a $100 tarp?

ETA


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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:52 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2528
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Charlie,

That is your name, isn't it?

The only real "crock of crap" here is your hijacking of this thread. Mr. Beckman's inquiry was to the ownership and potential fate of the car. You, instead of providing relevant facts, decided to use this as an opportunity to snipe at KRM behind your moniker. I decided to give Mr. Beckman the facts he requested, as he has inquired about this car before on this forum.

I feel there are many things KRM has done wrong, but that is not the pint of this thread. Your comments and frustrations are well founded, and I cannot say that I do not disagree with you on many of your points. However, this is not a forum for debate, or for "calling out" other museums. If you wish to discuss the issue or vent your frustrations, I invite you to PM me. I'll even give you my e-mail address and we can commiserate together.

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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:55 pm 

Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 11:27 am
Posts: 434
Location: Switching the Coach Yard
The question is, what happened to that car? Is it also eventually going to La Grange or........?

Les


Les,

Begging a thousand pardons for my previous attempts at answering your question and/or otherwise discussing the situation. The answers to the two questions you asked are:

Question 1) Nothing yet.

Question 2) Not that I am aware of.

I am truly sorry that I have offended some of the group's sensibilities by offering more info than was requested. In reviewing the situation I cannot imagine ANYONE expanding on your question and providing additional info that you did not ask for.

ETA, 'er Charlie, 'er he, she, it, 'er whatever name David is going to call me next....

P.S. I have NO interest in this car, however, I do have reason to believe that getting it out will be a challenge and will require a serious financial commitment -- more so than the typical trucking move. I will attempt to avoid discussing museum preservation philosophies (or lack thereof) here in the future.


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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:02 pm 

etalcos wrote:

And before we start on the BS of the CF-7 being a "necessity", I've seen much L&N power come and go In the time they've owned that unit that would have done just as good of a job and with a minimal amount of creativity could have been theirs. I realize that every organization will from time to time have equipment that isn't relative, sometimes out of fate or need, but its generally a small portion of their collection. Perhaps you can explain to us why (outside of the "tea kettle") money never seems to make it to the locally relevant equipment, but seems to be there for the locally irrelevant equipment? Is there in fact a good reason I've missed?

ETA


Well to KRM's credit they do slightly better than our other "preservation" railroad group here in KY running on a Southern branchline with rusted out Jersey Central coaches and a burned out N&W coal tipple switcher they spent close to seven figures to basically put a paint job on since it still breaks down every other run they make. The million dollar spray paint job was flaking off the N&W unit last time I saw it BTW.

Oddly enough the only guys in KY that seem to be able to take care of their equipment are the guys in Bowling Green who don't have a tourist train to make revenue off of.


  
 
 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:20 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 6:17 pm
Posts: 519
Location: Scranton, PA
The word "museum" is as over-used in this industry as the word "rare" is on Ebay.

I guess it comes down to defining a mission statement, are you a tourist excursion line or a museum that runs a train as part of its mission? Seems that KRM might have moved more towards the first of these two, though I was glad to see a roof over the 2716 on my last visit. The E6 was sad though. Etalcos is right (if not tactfull), a tarp would be better than nothing. I've got 1970's era postcards showing the unit in much better cosmetic condition. I know that KRM has had it's share of trials (floods, moves etc) over the years, but this significant artifact was not properly conserved and represents a failure on the museum's part.

The 152 is a gem and when it does run, makes for an effective "moving museum" experience. The BL2 can accomplish this on a more practical level as well.

A train consisting of a CF7 pulling LIRR coaches does not make a museum. It's a fine engine, it does the job quite well I'm sure, and I'm sure the LIRR cars came cheap, but THAT is a tourist train, not a museum.

Before I get the time/money/labor lecture, I am all too aware of the chronic shortages of these. I just think that there are organizations out there who need to figure out just what the heck they are trying to be.

By contrast (and I've said it before) I think the Railroad Museum of New England, in a similar situation, has done a much better job of defining what they are and what they want to accomplish. They have regionally significant pieces and a proper setting as well a comprehensive plan of who and what they are and where they want to go. There may be no polished up trains in a building, but make no mistake, they ARE a museum.

If I had a large sum of money to donate, guess which one would get the check?

Dave

PS: If RYPN isn't the place to discuss/debate such topics, I'm not sure what is.

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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:38 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2528
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Dave Crosby wrote:
PS: If RYPN isn't the place to discuss/debate such topics, I'm not sure what is.


I don't disagree, but not in a thread where someone just inquired whether a boxcar was moving to a display site, and if not, what the car's fate would be. Moreover, such discussions are done in a respectful tone, which does not include calling other organization's decisions a "crock of crap" no matter how misguided or wrong you feel them to be.

Perhaps, I am still a bit emotionally invested, even though I claim not to be. I did, after all, spent a good portion of my formative years at KRM.

Both maturity and distance have given me the opportunity to conclude that those in charge at KRM have really squandared what they had. They have missed wonderful opportunities, and instead, with the tired time/money/resources logic have decided that those are best spent becoming a tourist railroad at the expense of regionally significant equipment. As one of those "in charge" explained to me, giving me his logic, that the public didn't care as long as it was a train. I beg to differ and I think such an approach makes it difficult to attract volunteers, donors, grants, etc. Those people know the difference and tend to vote with their dollars.

When at KRM, I tried to find out how other museums made "it work" either with IRM style targed rundraising for acquisition, track space, barn space; or even simple ideas such as a collections statement that would dictate acquisitions be regionally significant. Each time I was rebuffed that such ideas would not work there. Some on the board are still hoping that a Bill Gates or Warren Buffet type will just drive in one day and drop off a blank check. You can't run a museum on that type of long term plan for very long and still be viable. At some point, you have to reach a point where you quit banging your head against the wall and walk away, and I did. As a result, I somewhat fear for the future of KRM and other "museums" who have a similar outlook.

Sadly, those in charge at KRM don't read this board, and probably do not have a good understanding of what makes a museum, versus a fun place to play train. Even "calling them out" in a constructive manner here won't do any good. The people you are trying to reach won't listen.

Both KRM and IRM are about the same distance from where I live now. Guess which one I've spent by far the most time in the last seven years?

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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:39 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8891
Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
Dave and others,

Part of the problem we have here is the oft-rehashed vicious "clash" between opposing forces--museum preservation of precious relics, versus giving the visitors something to experience besides static exhibits.

You say a CF7 pulling LIRR coaches does not a "museum" make. Yet, I don't hear many folks complaining similarly about the B&O Railroad Museum and its two trains: PRR sleepers rebuilt as commuter cars, and a round-end obs, OR converted military flat cars with benches, either being pulled by a red-painted non-B&O switcher OR one of several non-passenger B&O-heritage switchers or freight locos at the Museum's disposal. (The few times they ran a completely authentic--and right for the passenger-loadings--B&O RDC, people complained that it was too much like "riding a city bus"!)

It's not that dumb an idea. Presumably there would be a serious lack of authentic L&N or other Kentucky passenger rolling stock; the LIRR cars, though "boxes on wheels," are expendable (at least they're not C&NW or SP bilevels!). The CF7 is one of those pluggers that refuses to die, with somewhat proper maintenance. As popular as they would be, should they wear out the 152 or the E6 instead? (The BL2 seems a decent compromise, if you ask me.)

I don't have much problem with a "museum" using non-mission equipment as expendable ways to promote the experience, within proper parameters. (If you hold the Civil War re-enactment, think twice about having them heat and bend 60-pound rail, for example.) The major issue with KRM does seem to be a bit of a clash between operations, preservation, and logistics--and find me a museum that's doing everything perfectly.


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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:08 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 6:17 pm
Posts: 519
Location: Scranton, PA
Sandy,

Agreed, I think the BL2 is a decent compromise, and they don't neccessarilly have to be L&N heavyweights, BUT something representative of what would have travelled those rails would be much better. I read in one of the KRM newsletters that the intent was to "cycle through" one older coach at a time through the restoration process. I hope that remains a priority.

The B&O train is a different animal, if for no other reason than it leaves from a real museum, with interpretation, exhibits and so on. The train over the "first mile" isn't billed as a museum experience, but as a opportunity to travel over a historic (if not scenic) mile of trackage.

Dave W,

Also, agree. Sometimes a simple question opens the proverbial can of worms and sarcastic comments do nothing to further the cause.

Perhaps that's why I get irate over attacks at Steamtown. Sarcasm and insults do nothing. More often, unfortunately, that's the case. I can sit and talk factually about what problems exist 11 years after I quit (how much room do I have here?), but all to often the people who fire the first round can't function on that practical level.

That being said, I still think KRM has great potential, and I have shot the 152 on many occasions and bought a ticket every time.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:20 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2528
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Actually the BL-2 is relevant in several ways. The L&N merged the Monon into the larger system in the early 1970s, so it tells the story of an L&N predacessor road. The Monon also served Louisville and was a co-owner of the Kentucky and Indiana Terminal Railroad, which operated its own bridge, yard and engine service facilities in Louisville.

There are still a few ex L&N first generation geeps around, including one that was a passenger geep, with torpedo tube air tanks, that would also be a great way to tell the story of an L&N branchline after 1952 or so. I just do not see any interest from those in charge in trying to acquire such things, which is a shame.

Back to the main topic, if anyone is potentially interested in the NC&StL boxcar, I strongly suggest that you to make inquiries with both KRM and the Atkins Company.

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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:20 am 

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:22 pm
Posts: 429
For informational purposes ( I was at KRM last week ) ..

here is the consist of the excursion train at the depot... ( 4 car consist ) .. thought some who have never been to New Haven KY wouldn't mind seeing the consist..

I could share some thoughts and first impressions although perhaps its best to just let it be ?



Dean Levin


Attachments:
KRM1.jpg
KRM1.jpg [ 37.85 KiB | Viewed 6741 times ]
KRM2.jpg
KRM2.jpg [ 32.67 KiB | Viewed 6741 times ]
KRM3.jpg
KRM3.jpg [ 28.7 KiB | Viewed 6741 times ]


Last edited by PLATFORMCAR on Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:22 am 

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:22 pm
Posts: 429
the last two cars of the 4 car consist


Dean


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KRM4.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:20 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:16 am
Posts: 146
Location: Southwest Virginia
I had visions of something else. While my personal opinion is that a matching, or close to it color scheme would look better to the general population and potential visitors (3 kind of Tuscan Red and 1 Pullman Green Car)... that Locomotive really pops and my kids would go crazy over it. It bears a very familiar paint scheme that a wide range of the public has seen at one time or another. I have to think that it helps fill some seats.

Mike Stillwell
Buena Vista, VA.


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