this showed on the lost engines group

recoverable?

Group,
The following excerpts are from the PRR-FAX yahoo group. A new roster of locomotives was published on the site and one member found that 2 H6sb locomotives were dumped in the Allegheny River near Braeburn PA in 1936.

Current satellite views on Google earth possibly show 2 tender frames submerged in the river.

I had contacted scuba people in the area, but never heard back from any of them.

Is there anyone with resources on this group to help investigate this finding?

Thanks!

Dave Wilson




Hello all...

I noticed while looking thru the roster that a couple H-6sb's that had been
retired in 1935 were dumped in the Alleghany river in 1936 for use as a wall
during a flood at Braeburn, Pa. I wonder if they are still there....probably
badly
rusted maybe.Or perhaps they were removed during WWII or later for the steel.
I looked on google maps and could see what looked like were tender frames
in the river. So who knows.

Til later
Hank Mummert

Hi all...

Do a Google map search for Braeburn,Pa. It will list Braeburn, Lower Burrell,
Westmoreland.
When the map comes up you'll see a red "A" point on the map.Zoom in as far as it
will go. Just below the dam
and on the east side of the river you will see a pond next to the river and the
road (Lowe Rd)between them.
Just off shore in the river is a small green plot of land.Slightly to the left
of this and towards the bottom of this
little plot of land you will see what look like some sort of tender frames. At
least thats what i see on mine.

Til later
Hank Mummert




Group, this would have occurred a two weeks after the St. Patrick's Day Flood of
1936 on 3/27/36.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_Flood_of_1936


These are the locomotive numbers:

H6sb #9371
H6sb #9081


Dave Wilson


Frames in Allegheny River photo

As soon as the moderator approves it, I took a screen shot of the Google Earth
images showing the two frames in question and posted them in the group photos
section.� You will be able to see them in the Photos section in the album FRAMES
IN RIVER.� The frames are circled in white.


Being from the railcar fabricating business, at first glance they look like they
could be frames from some sort of rail car from the early 20th century, but they
are too distant to confirm anything rail related in the river.

Scott Trostel


Joel,
Let me know if this link works. I think this is the location they are talking
about:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=211408386196133197741.00045e6807c4f705fd7d6&\
msa=0&ll=40.6119,-79.716645&spn=0.00055,0.001084

Dave Wilson

Hi...

Yup that where i've been looking. Keep in mind they "could" be tender
frames...
until someone can confirm if they are not we don't know for sure, but the
picture of what
every it is and the location fit. for all i know they could be a old house
trailer frame.


til later
Hank Mummert

If the scale on google earth is accurate, the frames are about 20' long. Would
an H6sb have a 70F70 tender? If so, an 70F70 tender is 27' long which is
close....


Dave Wilson

A later report on the flood activities shows PRR placed three hoppers full of stone in the river at that point. They could be H6sb's, but more likely are the remains of hoppers.
Someone will, no doubt, check it out this summer.

I may be guessing, but is this where you are referring to on Google Maps?

40.611868,-79.716872

All,

Was "Lower road" once a railroad? Otherwise, it would be rather difficult to have positioned locomotives or even ballest to dump in the river.

Cheers, Jason

The PRR had tracks on both sides of the river. The tracks were on the opposite side of the pond from Lower Road and below (south) the pond they would have paralleled tight up against Lower Road

Having overcome my initial angst at even having a topic concering PRR steam locomotives which were attempting to emulate submarines -

A competent wreckmaster can move anything anywhere and the larger and more awkward the item the more fun he is having. To parahrase Archemedes "Give me a cable long enough and a place to anchor it and I can move the world."

GME

There appears to be a third object of the same size upriver on the same side of that island.

"Give me an imagination large enough, and I'll make it out to be intact Pennsy steam locomotives rather than three hoppers full of rocks."

You may quote me.

A very similar thing occurred in New Zealand with several now extinct types of steam loco. One, K88, has been returned to service some time ago. It can be done. And I believe this river is tidal- salt water!

Wes

I have to laugh, since as soon as I saw the title, the first thing I thought of was these very engines!

I grew up in that area as a kid, and my grandfathers both worked in the steel mill directly across the river from the supposed location they dumped the engines. I heard the story many times as kid, from them and others in the area. Of course details and location were always vague, but it was a pretty consistent rumor in the area.

Would be fun to see what's really there all these years later!

Could there have been a second track that ran along where Lower Road is now? I'm pretty sure that mill had tracks in it at one time. It looks quite reasonable for there to have been a track running right along the bank at that point, and along the river of the mill.

I'm not saying there was for certain, it's been too many years, but I think it's possible. Look at the single road right next to the river along the mill and see if you don't agree that could easily be a former track grade?

Wes,

I presume the saltwater river you mention is the one in New Zealand? The Allegheny is a long, long, long way from the ocean. It flows into the Ohio and then the Mississippi. Maybe the engines washed up in New Orleans?

What is the documentatin that locomotives were dumped in the river? The person reporting this said that he noticed it while looking at a roster. Does this roster state that two class H6sb locomotives were dumped in the river?

What is the wheel arrangement, weight, and date built of PRR locomotives class H6sb?

Modest-sized 2-8-0. approximately 205,000 pounds (345,000 including tender), built 1905-1913 as Class H6b, rebuilt with superheaters (and gaining ther "s" in the class) in the 1920s. PRR H6sb 2846 is in the RR Museum of Pa.; many of the 2-8-0's in service today or recently (think Gettysburg/H&BT 38, SR 630, Grand Canyon/Mt. Hood 18, etc.) are comparably sized.

For the record, this was kicked around for a while in the PRR-FAX Yahoo Group, the one that's a de facto extension of the PRRT&HS' I don't recall anything really conclusive either negative or positive coming of the discussion with regards to whether locomotives were there; it was speculated that what was visible could be at best freight car or tender frames.

The tendency amongst people such as ourselves is to fly off the deep end, talking about "the three H6sb's in the Allegheny River". Before this gets too far along, let's re-state a few facts: there are what appear to be steel frames in the river, alongside what appears to be a road bed. The steel frames are of a size which would match those of a tender or freight car of the period. There is a record of three retired H6sb consolidations having disappeared from the official records at the time of this flood. The Pennsy also lists three hoppers filled with stone as having been tossed into the river at the time of the flood. No boilers, drivers, or other steam locomotive parts have yet been observed. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to find three classic steam locomotive in the drink, but my frontal lobes tell me not to get too excited until hard evidence is brought to bear.
See, there once was a quarry......