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 Post subject: Abandoned Locomotives in Maine
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:39 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:57 am
Posts: 2376
Location: Faulkland, Delaware
These photos recently came through on my photostream:

http://imgur.com/a/1cRf2#W22kI

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Tom Gears
Wilmington, DE

If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Abandoned Locomotives in Maine
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:46 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3236
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Those are two ex-NYC steamers that were floated onto an island in Eagle Lake for a logging operation. They've been abandoned in place since at least the postwar era. The difficulty of getting them out is why they are still there.

Data on the engines is below, courtesy of SteamLocomotive.com

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/lists/se ... A&state=ME

The 2-8-0 is, amazingly, ex-Lake Shore & Michigan Southern; the 4-6-0 is ex-Indiana Harbor Belt, and one of these engines was reportedly once a compound.

Linked from the SteamLocomotive site:

http://www.maine.gov/doc/parks/programs ... ash/rr.htm

http://maineoutdoorjournal.mainetoday.c ... l?id=14151

The engines were in a house that was burned in the late 1960s; these photos date to just after the fire:

http://www.maine.gov/doc/parks/programs ... igfire.JPG

Have fun, and have more fun figuring out what to do with these two. . .


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 Post subject: Re: Abandoned Locomotives in Maine
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:15 pm 

Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 4:59 pm
Posts: 136
Hello folks.....seems every year we address this.

The locomotives are NOT abandoned. They are owned by the State of Maine and are located in the Tramway Historic District which is part of the Allagash Wilderness Waterway.

I spent a good amount of time crawling in, under and over these locomotives when I lead the successful effort to jack them up out of the mud and install new roadbed beneath them. I also have an extensive archive of material on the operation including corporate records, photographs, etc. built-up over the last 30 years.

Yes, they are in a remote location accessable only via boat or a nice hike through the Maine woods. When I wrote the proposal for the preservation efforts there was some discussion of a road cut into the site to facilitate removal - "oh....and while we are there we can cut off some old growth timber of the surrounding public lands"

Needless to say we prevailed and the road was not built, the locomotives are still there and the area has been designated a biological perserve. Yes, this is contrary to common wisdom and practice - drag it home with good intentions and let it rust there closer to the torch.

These locomotives are fairly unique in that they are exactly where the last operated when they were cooled down in September of 1903. About 2 miles of rail are still in place, the remains of the pulpcars they pulled are still there. There is also the remains of the 3000 ' long steam powered Tramway (conveyor) which operated from 1903-1908.

To remove them, stuff and mount them and slather white paint on the tires would totally disconect them from thier history and context.

The proposal called for corrosion abatement and a shelter - none of which have happened yet. However, a group is going in this spring to furfill another goal of the proposal with the reconstruction of a portion of the tramway.

As for one of these locomotives being compound - nix that. There are enough tale tales about this operation that have become "fact" and nearly impossible to correct inspite of historic documents, photos and first person accounts!

Image

Image

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Best regards,

Terry Harper


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 Post subject: Re: Abandoned Locomotives in Maine
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:34 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 3862
Location: Maine
Nice report, Terry. Looking at that first photo, these locomotive are much larger than I first suspected. And yes, a period shelter is exactly what they require, something with a pitch, slippery, type of cover, so snow doesn't crush it.

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 Post subject: Re: Abandoned Locomotives in Maine
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:24 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:57 am
Posts: 2376
Location: Faulkland, Delaware
Quote:
The locomotives are NOT abandoned. They are owned by the State of Maine and are located in the Tramway Historic District which is part of the Allagash Wilderness Waterway.


The lumber company closed up shop, went away, and left the locomotives behind. That fits my definition of abandoned. Agreed, they are now owned by the State of Maine and preserved in place. I remember reading about the effort to jack them up and repair the roadbed so the would not topple to the earth. That must have been one heck of an undertaking given their location. I'm sure may of us here would enjoy a short story with photos of the operation if you have the free time to put that together.


Quote:
These locomotives are fairly unique in that they are exactly where the last operated when they were cooled down in September of 1903.


Are you sure they were last used in 1903? I think you may have a typo there.

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Tom Gears
Wilmington, DE

If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Abandoned Locomotives in Maine
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:52 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5230
tomgears wrote:
Quote:
The locomotives are NOT abandoned. They are owned by the State of Maine and are located in the Tramway Historic District which is part of the Allagash Wilderness Waterway.


The lumber company closed up shop, went away, and left the locomotives behind. That fits my definition of abandoned. Agreed, they are now owned by the State of Maine and preserved in place. I remember reading about the effort to jack them up and repair the roadbed so the would not topple to the earth. That must have been one heck of an undertaking given their location. I'm sure may of us here would enjoy a short story with photos of the operation if you have the free time to put that together.


Quote:
These locomotives are fairly unique in that they are exactly where the last operated when they were cooled down in September of 1903.


Are you sure they were last used in 1903? I think you may have a typo there.


Tom - A long history on the 4-6-0 from J. David Conrad's book shows that the engine was built in June of 1897 by Schenectady for the Chicago, Hammond & Western as their #109. It ended up working for the Indiana Harbor Belt as their #109 in July of 1907. Had two later renumberings on the IHB and was eventually sold to a railroad in Pennsylvania called the Potato Creek Railroad in 1918. Did not end up in Maine until 1926. This is an abbreviated record of the Ten-Wheeler's history. BTW, this is apparently the only surviving IHB steam locomotive.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Abandoned Locomotives in Maine
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:13 pm 

Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 4:59 pm
Posts: 136
Sorry typo...September 1933

After the Madawaska Company operation shutdown the property was sold to Irving Pulp & Paper. In 1969 Irving deeded the property to the state of Maine. During all this time the locomotives were snug in thier shed albeit parts and pieces drifted away over time. During all this time and indeed since 1904, the Maine Forest Service maintained a staffed camp at the site and in fact had used the railroad for fire patrol. Follow the link below to take a ride on the railroad circa 1966.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-gtPiqlTLc

In early 1969 (as mentioned previously) the State of Maine Deparment of Conservation aquired the property along with all it included. As mentioned before through tragic miscomunication the shed and remaining buildings were burned.

Since they arrived on site in 1927 & 1928 respectfully, the locomotives have been under continuous ownership. Thas not abandonment i.e. free for the taking.

Quote:
Tom - A long history on the 4-6-0 from J. David Conrad's book shows that the engine was built in June of 1897 by Schenectady for the Chicago, Hammond & Western as their #109. It ended up working for the Indiana Harbor Belt as their #109 in July of 1907. Had two later renumberings on the IHB and was eventually sold to a railroad in Pennsylvania called the Potato Creek Railroad in 1918. Did not end up in Maine until 1926. This is an abbreviated record of the Ten-Wheeler's history. BTW, this is apparently the only surviving IHB steam locomotive.


Beleive it or not even some of that has changed. During the excavation beneath EL&WB No. 1 we found a copper plate that would have been affixed to the backhead it reads:

"ENG NO. 8 SHOP NUMBER 4553 ALLOWABLE PRESSURE 190 LBS HYDROSTATIC PRES 239 LBS"

The number 8 confims it was indeed Potato Creek No. 8 but 4553 is listed as Chicago Hammond & Western No. 110 rather than 109. 4552 is listed as CH&W No. 109.

Anyways - we also recovered a tin plate from a private collection which confirms the Grasse River connection - very faintly you can see the number 63 it carried on that road.

I have yet to find a photo of it in service on the Grasse River. There is a wonderful series of letters in my archives between Lacroix and General Equipment Company whom he purchased the locomotive from. (The 2-8-0 was purchased from Ferguson & Allen)

In the letters Lacroix accuses General Equipment of buying the locomotive for scrap value and selling it to him for a considerable profit. General Equipment stated that they only made $300.00 on the deal and that Lacroix was running it too hard and expecting to much of it and thus the large number of breakdowns. No doubt it was well used and beyond its prime as illustrated by the down-time recorded.

In fact in 1927 alone, from opening of the line during the week of August 1 1927 through the end of the hauling season on November 24, 1927 this locomotive racked-up 65% of the total down time due to locomotive malfunction as recored for the entire operation through September of 1933!

Yes, the plan call for the construction of a new shed which replicates the size and design of the original complete with its rusted metal roof.

Image

Image


Image


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 Post subject: Re: Abandoned Locomotives in Maine
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:57 pm 

Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 4:59 pm
Posts: 136
Quote:
Nice report, Terry. Looking at that first photo, these locomotive are much larger than I first suspected. And yes, a period shelter is exactly what they require, something with a pitch, slippery, type of cover, so snow doesn't crush it.


Richard,

The 2-8-0 tips the scales at 180,000 lbs

The 4-6-0 is 142,000 lbs

Are you going up in June to help with the Tramway restoration? It would give A you great opertunity to get up close and personal with not only the Tramway (which is a remarkable piece of engineering) but also the locomotives which are just a stones throw away.

Best regards,

Terry

1904 Marsh & Ayer Eagle Lake Tramway looking north towards Eagle Lake (where the locomotives sit today) The Tramway was 3000' feet long

Image

Eagle Lake Tramway boilers & headworks(Westinghouse Compound engine) on Chamberlain Lake end.

Image

The plan is to reconstruct a portion of the Tramway at the Chamberlain Lake end
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Abandoned Locomotives in Maine
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:42 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5230
Terry Harper wrote:

Quote:
Tom - A long history on the 4-6-0 from J. David Conrad's book shows that the engine was built in June of 1897 by Schenectady for the Chicago, Hammond & Western as their #109. It ended up working for the Indiana Harbor Belt as their #109 in July of 1907. Had two later renumberings on the IHB and was eventually sold to a railroad in Pennsylvania called the Potato Creek Railroad in 1918. Did not end up in Maine until 1926. This is an abbreviated record of the Ten-Wheeler's history. BTW, this is apparently the only surviving IHB steam locomotive.


Beleive it or not even some of that has changed. During the excavation beneath EL&WB No. 1 we found a copper plate that would have been affixed to the backhead it reads:

"ENG NO. 8 SHOP NUMBER 4553 ALLOWABLE PRESSURE 190 LBS HYDROSTATIC PRES 239 LBS"

The number 8 confims it was indeed Potato Creek No. 8 but 4553 is listed as Chicago Hammond & Western No. 110 rather than 109. 4552 is listed as CH&W No. 109.


Terry - Interesting! If this is correct, then I assume that the IHB renumberings should be to 116 and then 16, instead of 115 and 15. (J. David; please copy!). BTW, did the 4-6-0 have a wooden cab? I notice that the cab of the Consolidation survived the engine shed fire, but the cab of the ex-IHB Ten-Wheeler is missing.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Abandoned Locomotives in Maine
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:28 pm 

Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 4:59 pm
Posts: 136
Quote:
Terry - Interesting! If this is correct, then I assume that the IHB renumberings should be to 116 and then 16, instead of 115 and 15. J. David; please copy!


Les,

Yes the cab was wood with metal lower side panels. Whether this was the original cab I do not know. There is a photo of its sister (CH&W 109) in the Alco Archives. It was a very hansome engine in its day. However by the time it arrived on the EL&WB the clearstory was long gone! Another part of the proposal was to build a new cab.

Here are some photos of the plate - I apologize for the poor quality - my camera does not take good inside photos - combine that with benign tremors..... well you see the results.

As you can see the plate is badly bent - but you can see the number 4553 Note the 3 is stamped upside down. In the other photo you can see ENG. 8

I can try to get a better photo tomorrow if you would like.

I got the numbers 4552 & 4553 from information William Edson sent me in 1992.

In July of 1968 Mr. Edson traveled to Tramway with the specific intent of gathering data to, hopefully identify the locomotives proof positive. Mr. Edson Wrote this concerning EL&WB No. 1: "A number plate reading "63" was still on her cab on one side." [As I mentioned previously we recovered this plate from a private collection.]

He continues: "Lifting off the cover exposed some stamped numerals, all right but years of service out in the open had permitted much of the markings to flake-off, and now only the words Schenectady Locomotive Works were decipherable. The numbers which followed looked like 4552 but I could not be sure."

Wether or not the plate we recovered from beneath the locomotive was still afixed to the backhead I do not know. I would think with Mr. Edson's background (NYC Mechanical Officer, FRA, author) he would have surely found it if it was.

The other thing is as I mentioned previously some sources list the 4-6-0 (like the 2-8-0) as being purchased by Lacroix's Madawaska Co. from Ferguson & Allen - a used equipment dealer in Batavia, NY. Below is proof that that was not the case. I find this a truely amazing document!


Best regards,

Terry Harper


Image

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Abandoned Locomotives in Maine
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:54 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5230
Terry -

Thanks very much for the two photos of the Copper Plate with the "backwards" 3 in the number 4553. Terrific find! Also, thanks for the posting of the copy of the letter from the General Equipment Company. All of this is extremely interesting.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Abandoned Locomotives in Maine
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:54 am 

Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 4:59 pm
Posts: 136
Your Welcome Les,

Now if only we could correct some of the listings for this engine.

Best regards,

Terry Harper

And a few final photos

Image

The crew - None of these guys had hands-on-experience with locomotives - only a few were railfans they just thought the project was challenging and neat and wanted help. This shot was taken the day we finally got No. 1 up on blocking. You couldn't have found a better bunch of guys to work with anywhere.Thats me sitting on the running board looking totally spent - which I was after months of planning and worry.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Abandoned Locomotives in Maine
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:26 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3236
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Terry, thanks for the corrections to the results of a limited search and faulty memory, and especially thanks for your work in the preservation of these engines. That looks like it was a job!

How much easier things would be if that shed hadn't been burned in the 1960s. Talk about entering "King Tut's tomb!"

Wonder how much work it would take to reopen the rail line for motor cars?

(Ducks under desk.)

Wonder how much work it would take to reopen the rail line and rebuild the locomotives for operation?

(Dives into the Greenbriar's bomb shelter.) :-)

Some material that showed up on YouTube, related through the motor car clip above:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G2LMPOq ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0p5NCWR ... re=related

Not on this railroad, but fascinating anyway as a glimpse of what came before, are clips of a working Lombard log hauler:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAJ0mxp- ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw22NSKi ... re=related

And another version called a Phoenix:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CnNvNWk ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbzvnTdj ... re=related

Enjoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Abandoned Locomotives in Maine
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:11 pm 

Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 4:59 pm
Posts: 136
Quote:
Wonder how much work it would take to reopen the rail line for motor cars?


To give you some idea.....this is how all equipment and personnel were moved to and from the site.

Image

Here is one of the Lombards actually used on the operation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aI0D7cYYd4

I currently have a Lombard engine from a Lacroix Lombard in my shop. Here is a link to the thread on its restoration:

http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83497


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 Post subject: Re: Abandoned Locomotives in Maine
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:34 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:27 am
Posts: 458
Location: Winters, TX
Okay, we convert the SS Badger back to a rail ferry, move it to Maine...

Seriously, I applaud your efforts in the preservation of these engines and other artifacts in the region. And for rebuilding a really cool engine. And thanks for all the photos and information. This is a fascinating story!


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