We have a single dome riveted tank car at HVRM that was donated to us a number of years ago by a company called Animal By-Products in New Carlisle, Indiana. The car sits on a pair of Vulcan trucks and cast into the frames is the notation "NYC LINES". I wondered if this might be a former New York Central tank car, so I contacted the NYC Historical Society. I was told that the NYC had no tank cars on their roster. Since the car had obviously been in some kind of a wreck at one time, I then figured that the NYC trucks were put on after the car was repaired.

Recently however, in another thread on RyPN, there was a link to the Washington State Railroad Historical Society. When checking their website, I found that in their list of freight cars, they show a New York Central tank car, built in 1917. Our car was built by AC&F in 1919, so this has gotten me wondering again if this car might have actually been owned at one time by the Central, and perhaps the gentleman I contacted at the NYCHS those many years ago, was in error. Anyone out there know if perhaps the New York Central did at one time own tank cars?

I've attached a couple of photos of the car at HVRM.

Thanks.

Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum/North Judson, Indiana)

Les,

There is a NYC tank car at Elkhart of that vintage. I am looking for my pictures of it to compare to the ones you posted. The one in Elkhart was originally used to transport diesel fuel to remote engine facilities. There is also a picture of a car from that class in the Conrail Freight Equipment book, my copy of it is in storage in Indiana right now. Sorry i could not be of more help.

Mark A. Frazier

Hi Les!

When are you ever going to learn to just email and ask me about things like this? :-)

No, the NYC didn't own any REVENUE tank cars.
Yes, they owned tank cars. Lots of them. Most of their affiliates owned a few too. Eight show up in the 1930 NYCL ORER.

Would you like a photo of a NYC&HR tank car? The photo's from about 1901.

WHO in the world did you talk to over at the NYCHS????

As for the trucks under than tank car, ignore them. They could have come from literally ANYWHERE. They could have been wreck replacements, they could have been added in the 1960s by a reseller, a leasing company who owned the tank previously could have just bought sideframe castings from MDT or the NYC in the 1930s....the list goes on and on. About the only thing you can be sure of is that those are NOT the car's original trucks.

But then again, that may well not be the car's original underframe either. Tank cars are usually all about the TANKS themselves, just like a steam engine is identified by its boiler. Any idea what the parentage, or at least the ICC tank type is?

Look at the stampings on the head of the tank. They may provide information as to the order number and tank serial number, at the least. From this you may be able to determine the year built and possibly who the order was for. The tank is an ARA III class tank and was likely built 1919 or later.

I've managed to find out, the hard way, that on occasion the vaunted "technical and historical societies", or at least certain self-appointed "know-it-all" representatives, simply cannot be counted upon for accurate information, difficult to believe as it may seem. On at least three occasions, I was able to confront two of them with firsthand information (diaries from local historians, company-issued track plans/blueprints, photos, etc.) either directly contradicting their narratives or irrevocably proving a scenario they had stated was "impossible/they never did that."

I'm now envisioning some Sheldon Cooper clone saying "But I said the NYC had no tank cars on their roster. So I'm still right."

One thing to keep in mind when asking for information from people in these groups is that they often worked for the railroad and answer questions based on their personal experience. And even good faith answers can be entirely wrong when you are inquiring about things that were long before their time. In one instance at the museum where I was working an educator asked some of the guys how long rails were when the golden spike was driven in 1869? And they all told her the answer was 39 feet, an answer entirely wrong for the time period, but the only length they ever experienced. Their experience had no bearing on the question, but they were trying to be helpful. It helps if the question can be phrased very carefully and specifically, stressing the time period being asked about, but not everyone has the ability to do this. And when dealing with questions from the public I found that some folks can't ask a question that gets at what they are looking for at all, asking ones so broad that it takes 10 minutes of discussion to get to what they are really looking for. What should be easy just isn't.

I have exactly the opposite take on the situation. I'm usually appalled at the total lack of information railroad museums have about the pieces in their collections. The problem seems to stem from trying to pull all the information from the artifact itself; in this instance, the car has NYC cast into the trucks, therefore it must be a NYC car. The fact that there are at least a dozen reasons why this isn't likely never enters into the equation; there just isn't the breadth of experience available.

Railroad historical societies should have that wider view. The key is starting a dialog with the people who will likely have the answer, or be able to find it in the archives. My experience with obtaining information from railroad historical societies is, as quaint as it might sound, it's best done via mail. Sending a letter to whoever is listed as the archivist puts all the relevant information on one piece of paper, which can be circulated from member to member, often times each adding just one piece of the answer. If the society has no one listed as the archivist, try sending it to the magazine editor. The editor is the guy who has the contacts to answer obscure questions that come up when preparing articles for publication. With any luck he'll send your question out like any other.

Another source not to be overlooked is the modeling fraternity. Some of these people have done an amazing amount of research; on builders, on various railroads, on car leasing fleets that will never rate a historical society of their own. I dare say, if that question was asked on the Steam Era Freightcars Yahoo group, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/ there would be people who could identify the builder of the car by simply looking at the details, others might have some idea of the origin of the fleet run by the last owner.

For myself, the first questions that come to mind are:

Is the paint on the car original from the last owner?

If so, what does all the tank test information stenciled at the right end of the tank have to say? It should list the builder, built date, date and location of the last pressure test...

Has anyone done any scraping on the center sill in the area that is patch painted? All tank cars used to carry reporting marks on the frame as well as the tank; frames are less likely to be sandblasted before repainting, so often older reporting marks remain buried in the paint.

Another correspondence showed up on a PRR-based e-mail list today:

There were a couple of questions raised concerning the tank car at HVRM so I took a few photos this past Saturday and have included them here to possibly help answer them. The first photo shows the lettering that appears on the right end of the car. This shows who built the car and when, and various other data, all self-explanatory. The second photo shows the last time the car was apparently serviced by the compay that handled this for the W. C. Haffner Company, the last owner of the car when it was in active service. The final photo shows the cars reporting marks WCHX 1114 on the frame and also the previous reporting marks. Shown here, these previous marks are much faded since the car came to the museum back in 1993, however I recorded them after the car came in and they read PTCX 1103.

Les

Gentlemen,

After Les posted the additional photos of the stenciling on the tank, I posted the following question to the Steam Era Freightcars Yahoo group:


On the Railway Preservation News discussion board there is a question as to the
origins of a tankcar presently at the Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum in North
Judson, Indiana. The car was last used by the Walter Haffner Company, who dealt
in animal by-products... yuck! Anyway, the museum would like to restore/repaint
the car for an earlier era, and in general would like to nail down its history.
One thought they had is since the car rides on Vulcan trucks with NYC cast in
the sideframes, that the car is ex-NYC, but that really doesn't seem likely
(it's possible) and it's not unusual for used trucks to make their way into
service in the lease fleets.

Here's what is known so far:

AAR III, Built by AC&F 7/1919, last tested by Keith Tank Line at Longview TX
4/30/54. The last reporting marks were WCHX 1114, previous mark was PTCX 1103.

Photos are in the discussion at RyPN.org, I don't think you need to be
registered to view the discussion at this link:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35047

If you read through the thread, you'll see I make quite the case for
collaborating with the modeling fraternity, since modelers seem to do
considerably more in depth research than the railway museums do, simply because
the museum folks are preoccupied with just preserving and maintaining the
stuff. Let's show them what we can do. I'm sure any information we can add, even
general histories of the car design or fleets it was in would be appreciated.

Dennis Storzek


What follows is the discussion:


Dennis;

I agree with what some of the more...rational members of that blog posted. It
indeed looks like an AC&F pre-Type-21 AAR III (later - 103) tank car, with the
5-sheet radial riveted top courses and single sheet bottom, fairly typical 2%
dome and safety valve set-up, and what looks an awful lot like an AC&F u/f of
that time period, with a more modern AB brake eqpt. conversion. I don't think
these cars were that unusual, but this is a nice example. Given its type and
features, this may have been purchased for petroleum service, and the PTCX
ownership may be a lead. I don't have my AC&F tank car book handy, but suspect
there may be one or more examples in there, since this was a very common type.
I agree those trucks look to be cast-offs. Sorry I have no info on the earlier
owner.

Elden Gatwood



Dennis, the car in question is an 8,000 gal. AC&F Type 17 built, as the
stenciling says, in July, 1919. And that is the original AC&F underframe with
AB air brake equipment replacing its original KC brakes. This car would
originally have had two safety valves on an elbow attached to the dome, but they
were doubtless removed and the hole plated over when the car was converted to
carry non-regulatory commodities in the late 1950s; note the frangible disk
relief valve on top of the dome. We know the car wasn't used for regulatory
commodities much after 1954, since that's the last pressure test date. Cars
used for non-regulatory commodities were not required to be pressure tested. As
several people who contributed to the discussion pointed out, the fact that the
truck side frames were originally cast for the New York Central is of no
significance; most Type 17s were delivered with arch bar trucks which were, of
course, required to be replaced on cars in interchange by 1941, and the original
trucks were often replaced with second hand trucks. The Keith Railway Equipment
Co. operated its own tank car fleet, but their extensive shops at Longview, TX
performed tests and maintenance on cars for many tank car owners. PTCX were the
reporting marks of the People's Transportation Co. of New Orleans, LA and first
appeared in the Official Railway Equipment Registers in the mid-1960s showing
six cars numbered 1101-1106. The ORERs provide no data about People's
Transportation Co. or the commodities their cars carried, but someone with
access to a major business affairs library might be able to track down more
information. Their tank car fleet was short lived, as it appeared in the 10/65
ORER but was absent from the 10/67 ORER. I have no clue about who owned the
PTCX cars before People's Transportation acquired them second hand, but there
might some evidence for that on the car itself. The Walter Haffner Co.,
originally of Chicago, first appeared in the ORERs at the end of World War II
with a fleet of almost 200 tank cars operating under WCHX reporting marks,
mostly if not entirely second hand. By the '60s they had relocated their
headquarters to Mobile, AL and operated a sizable tank car fleet. It appears
that their cars carried a lot more than animal by-products, as they had
insulated cars, high pressure cars. cars with aluminum tanks, etc. Photographic
evidence indicates that most, if not all, of these cars continued to be acquired
second (or third or fourth) hand.

Richard Hendrickson



The reporting marks PCTX were assigned to the Poultry Transit Co.
1/1945-4/1947, then Poultry Transit Inc. 1/1950

WCHX was assigned to WC Haffner in 1/1945, then to Walter Haffner Co.
4/1947-7-1005

As the car was last used for animal by-products, it is quite possible it was
in similar service for earlier owner Poultry Transit Co.

Here is an interesting history of the Poultry Transit Co.
http://www.hoosiervalley.org/history/tu ... nd-trains/

It indicates that Poultry Transit Co. was formed in 1944 as a spin off by
North American Car Co. who had acquired Live Poultry Transit Co. in 1930.
North American's acquired North Judson (Ind) car repair shops in 1927, which
were located along the NYC, (ie the possible source of the trucks?). North
Judson apparently repaired tank cars, reefers and poultry cars.

To go further back: Live Poultry Transportation Co. predecessor to Live
Poultry Transit Co., owned approximately 700 cars, which were acquired by
International Equipment Co. and leased back to the newly formed Live Poultry
Transit Co. in 1913.

Doug Harding



That's all very interesting, Doug, but I didn't mention the Poultry Transit Co.
in my earlier e-mail because they never owned any tank cars. Their cars were
all live chicken cars and both the cars and the reporting marks were gone from
the ORERs by 10/50 because the cars had been retired. So they obviously weren't
the owners of the tank car in question.

Richard Hendrickson


Small point: the car is an ARA III spec, NOT an AAR car. The ARA handled
tank car specs until 1927, when it went over to the ICC -- which is well before
the formation of the AAR. Older cars were correctly stenciled with the identity
of the spec under which they were built, in this case ARA III. There WAS no spec
called AAR III.

Tony Thompson


I think this tank car has the "AC&F Type 19" underframe. The tank style is
similar to the tanks built in 1919 and 1920 by AC&F. The 8,000 gallon capacity
ARA Type III tank built by AC&F during these two years had the almost exact
configuration of the tank of the preserved car.

By comparison to a known tank car lot of 300 cars ordered on 12/17/19 that were
built by AC&F in 1920 (one car in builder's photo about 45 cars into the order
blt 7/1920), it probably took AC&F a couple of months to build the car in
question.

Using the built date of 7/1920 on the preserved car, examination of the AC&F
Order Book strongly suggests the following candidates (all 8,000 gallon tank
cars) for the original owner of the car:

- Lot 8657 (30) White Eagle Petroleum Co. tank cars ordered 12/4/18

- Lot 8661 (3) Smethport Extract Co. 50-T 8,000 gal tank cars ordered
1/19/1919

- Lot 8670 (15) Magnolia Petroleum 40-T ? gallon tank cars ordered 4/16/1919

- Lot 8678 (10) Akin Gasoline Co. 40-T 8,000 gallon tank cars ordered
5/9/1919

- Lot 8684 (2) Kendall Refining Co. 40-T 8,000 gallon tank cars ordered
6/5/1919

- Lot 8708 (2) Kendall Refining Co. 40-T 8,000 gallon tank cars ordered
7/25/1919

- Lot 8712 (50) North American Car Co. 40-T "Type 19" 8,000 gallon tank cars
ordered 7/30/1919

Since Doug has indicated that the history of one of the predecessor companies of
PTCX traced back to North American Car, I would vote for the car being from Lot
8712. However, based on the order date and the built date on the car, the car
at the museum must have been (a) the first car in the series and (b) business at
AC&F must have been VERY slow in 1919! ALSO - Lot 8712 is the first mention of
a "Type 19" tank car in the listing!

Just my 2 cents on the subject!

A.T. Kott


Unfortunately, Mr. Kott apparently wrote this before the the discussion revealed that Poultry Transit Co., the supposed North American Car Co. tie-in, did not have any tank cars. However, Lot 8712 is the first listing to call out “Type 19” (AC&F’s designation) If this is so, and the underframes of earlier cars were identifiably different (see next post) then this may be the only lot to match the museum cars built date.


Just a couple more comments - I think the dome pressure vents on the Type 19
tank cars as-built in 1919 and 1920 were on top of the dome, on the "B" side of
the dome lid. Also, the cars had only one ladder and platform to the dome, and
it was on the side of the car that you face when the "B" end is to your right.
The museum car conforms with this, but the vents appear to be of a newer design.

The Type 19 underframe differed from the Type 17 underframe in that the end
sills were "tapered" downward on the Type 17 underframes, but were straight 9"
channels on the Type 19 cars. The Type 19 underframe had a wood plank butting
up to the back of the end sill and level with the top of the end sill. The Type
19 underframe was almost exactly like the Type 21 underframe, except that the
wood walkway sat on top of the 9" channel end sills on the Type 21, not abutted
to the back of them! More than you wanted to know!

Lot 8712 is the first mention of the "Type 19" tank car in the lot number book.

As for the number of cars ordered from 12/1918 to 8/1919, there were in lots
from Lot 8655 to Lot 8712 (57 lots). For 12/1919 to 8/1920, there were cars
built in lots from Lot 8807 to Lot 9063 (256 lots). Thus there was a good deal
more business for AC&F in the later period than there was in the 12/1918 to
8/1919 period, so it is conceivable that the North American Car Co. cars could
have started being built immediately upon being ordered.

A.T. Kott


I am aware from Neubauers's book on ACF Centerflows that modern ACF practice was
to stamp the lot number in a standard location on every car. Is it possible AC&F
was doing this with tanks back in 1919? Anyone have a suggestion as to where to
look?

Dennis Storzek


We are restoring a 1914 ACF built Type II car and have wondered about this.
A shop owner in south Texas whose father was in the business for 50 years
told me that they were stamped with some sort of designation in the center
of each tank head. Unfortunately the 1914 vintage car that we have does not
have such markings but we do have the reporting marks still visible.

There is a tank shell of similar vintage at MP 186 on the Turner Turnpike
near Stroud, OK. The reporting marks do not exist on this car and I also did
not find anything stamped on the heads, so my information must have been
incorrect.

Tom Birkett


Well, Les, here is some meat to chew on. The list of all the tankcar lots built by AC&F during the period of interest doesn’t show any going to the NYC, so I think it’s safe to say the only connection there is second hand trucks. If you are lucky enough to find one of the lot numbers stamped into the tank somewhere, you’ll know the history for sure. I believe the St. Louis Mercantile Library has a portion of the ACF builder’s photo collection, so you may be able to order prints of several likely lots and see if any is an exact match for the car. As far as I know none of this is on line, but the collection curator is helpful, contact info here:

http://www.umsl.edu/mercantile/barriger/barriger-history.html

Then again, repainting the car into its as built lettering is going to create an anachronism as far as the brake equipment is concerned, and possibly other details. Therefore it might be best just to leave it as a Haffner car.

Dennis, Thanks so much for all the information. I'm going to see Les in a couple of hours
maybe he has had a chance to read all this information. I actually found the tank car on a trip to South Bend on the South Shore in May 1993 at New Carlisle IN an it was HVRM's within a week. Moved in August of 93 to North Judson.

I completely had stripped the car an repainted it, but never found any markings. We will do some more investigation as time permits. Thanks again for all the new information and all the people who helped in this investigation.

Dennis -

Thanks very much for posting this to the Steam Era Freightcars group on Yahoo. The discussion has been very interesting, and I have learned a lot of new things. It was never my intention to paint the car back to its original lettering, but just to find out if it could have been a New York Central car and show it in our museum records that way. From this discussion, I agree that it was not ex-NYC, so that question got answered. I am going to make some changes to the roster I keep of our equipment based on this discussion. I will probably post some comments and/or questions to some of the folks who posted comments on the Steam Era Freight Cars group, but that will be for another day. Again, thanks for posting this. I appreciate it very much.

Les

A quick note if I may to a couple of comments on the Steam Era Freightcars discussion of WCHX #1114. Mr. Gatwood above, states that the car is an AAR III, which is what is on the car (see my photo below). Mr. Thompson on the other hand in his comment, says that the car "is an ARA III, NOT an AAR car." When we repainted the car black a few years ago, we did not paint over the lettering shown in my photo. I did go over the existing yellow with One-Shot paint and also carefully painted the black in between the letters/numbers. I changed nothing (note the filled in bottom "loop" in the ampersand...this is the way it was on the car and that is the way I left it). So apparently we have a difference of opinion here. Perhaps when the car was repainted by Keith Tank Line in 1954, they got the lettering wrong. BUT, I won't change it. It was on the car, and on the car it stays! BTW, the lettering on this side of the car was all in good shape (although faded), but only the top two lines of the lettering on the other side were good. The balance I have to transfer from what is shown in the picture. I am not looking forward to doing it!

Thanks again for all comments.

Les

That's true, Les, and I pointed out that the car was stenciled that way when it came to the museum in a message that I edited out, since there was no further comment. I'm glad you have the documentation that this is as original; I see so much questionable stuff on museum cars that I refuse to use museum applied paint and lettering for reference.

But Mr. Thompson make a valid point that, for the sake of future unrelated discussions, there is no AAR III standard; ownership of the standard passed directly from the ARA to the ICC at the time of the formation of the AAR. It was a point that needed to be made to the onlookers to the discussion, and Tony made it.

I think using other railroads car parts was pretty common years ago. At one time I owned an old Soo Line wood caboose with leaf spring trucks. One set of trucks had GN cast on it and the other had UP.

Barry