OK, we FEEL it is important and needs to be preserved.......so we devote our time and resources to it. I wonder how many of us do it for reasons other than ego gratification and to make ourselves feel good because we like it? Is it more than a small religion? College football teams are religions with greater numbers of converts than railroad historians........and they get a lot more money and respect.

I'm challenging everybody to post good, supportable rational reasons why what we do is of any importance to the community at large, and why our contributions are worthy of the investment and support of those who don't share our passion. If we can't answer this question, we clearly are delusional.

dave

The railroads were the foundation of a majority of small communities as well as large ones, even entire cities. At one point in time, a significant amount of the population were employed in the historic growth of this country, and from interurbans, to streetcars, to local mixed freights to luxury limiteds..each variation of railroad technology fueled not only the economy but brought a sense of regions being united for the first time, conquering time and distance. Future generations deserve to know this legacy as in order to appreciate what we enjoy in the present, to fully appreciate our own heritage, of innovation as a country. National pride in what we have accomplished in the past is needed more than ever, in order to have confidence in the future. The challenge is to have a vision equal to the legacy. Naysayers and those who would say that our heritage is of no interest to anyone who is not already enamored and appreciates the subject are clearly delusional..whether it is local communities preserving their stations by re-purposing them, or the ignoring why communities sought to place steam locomotives in highly visible display areas and continue to do so, or the throngs of non railfans that line that tracks when a excursion passes by, or the train watching shelters popping up here and there..will just never get what real potential there is out there to support railroad heritage. To lobby in an organised national fashion is not rocket science..to gain recognition that now is under the radar. If I had the clout that comes by position or recognition, hell,..Id do it myself to get the ball rolling..Look at the situation with the CMRR could they use a national organisation with the same leverage as the rails to trails organisation to lend their efforts in support? Of course they could.All it would take is a prospectus of intent for such an organisation and have some meat on the bones in terms of board members..would you be willing to support their efforts with a modest donation, or perhaps what one can afford?..No one has asked. Perhaps its well past time to get minds with a similar vision together..what is there to lose? The loss of our industrial heritage makes the time ripe in my opinion..for what its worth.

OK, thanks, Bruce....we have one response. Anybody else?

dave

Agree 100% about getting young people involved. I think it an under rated topic as we need to refill our ranks. This would be a better separate thread though as it is involved enough to take away from the "list" part of this one. Like your comments "weekend railroader". Things have changed so much as to getting the "John Q public" to have any serious kind of interest in history so we do need to think out of the box like a history teacher does to try and sell your product, as in HISTORY. Hands on usually works best, now how to get people to that place? Regards, John.

I really like your question Dave. Am not sure I can stay focused long enough to make anything make sense and still stay on track? For the record for anybody that doesn't know me I am pretty much about as "non main stream" as they come so my view is as often the case may not jive with others. And some of this goes back to the very topic I was trying to stay away from and that is involvement of young people, including those younger than the legal age of 18, kids.

Think back to what took our country by the horns in the realm of popularity. "The Beatles" and many other bands. Obviously movie stars and movies, food and drinks to use a couple of examples. It comes down to marketing most of the time. Some products sell themselves, but most things need help and marketing tells people what is hot and what is not. Music buffs don't like to talk or hear about how the Beatles were promoted big time in the beginning, yes they took off and sold themselves. Timing was spot on for them. History right now doesn't sell to huge audiences most of the time. Good movies with historical background do for only short period of times, say like "Saving Private Ryan" or "Band of Brothers". What really sold museums in the past, to me from my limited perspectives, was an older type of marketing which may have been more to with society than actual marketing.

Now back to the topic of getting younger people involved and answering or attempting to answer Dave's question about "Why" should the public find "our interests of history" interesting and useful. As mentioned model railroading was huge in the past and I think it could come back as the industry needs to capitalize on most male kids having a natural love of trains, better activity than electrical gadgetry that consumes most kids who are given this type of babysitting entertainment non stop. Start selling creativity as a bonus and outlet for the boundless energy kids have. HUH, you say? Most kids graduating to having an interest in the real thing started off with toy trains or model railroading. Most kids are fascinated by trains and dinosaurs. IF it were marketed as a healthy pastime for kids and parents to spend quality time together you might get somewhere. Yes I heard of Thomas the Train and I still think it a great thing, in the long run. Attach history to it. Little Johnny doesn't care that much about history yet, he might, but the point is get them interested. Get Mom and Dad interested in a healthy day out at the local RR museum. Good for the whole family, attach history to it, after all first you have to get them to show up. It is usually not a cheap day out with the family so you need to focus on why it is important, as if "for the whole family"!

Despite what the media tells us about what is hip and what is not, people are concerned that the world is going to hell in the proverbial hand basket. This is not a political advertisement for my political opinion. To many the message may be wasted on, but I see a lot of concerned parents {a lot of moms} bring some kid to the museum simply because the kid has the "bug", he has drunk the Kool-Aid. These moms are smart enough to see it as a non threatening interest and a positive outlet for their kids. The history is there already, the interest is going to be kindled slowly, you can attach history to it when the time is right or let nature take it's course. This of course is not necessarily a quick fix or even the only way to address things. It is just something I see and a positive experience for our kids, ourselves and society as a whole. The decline in interest in history didn't happen overnight and won't probably change over night either.

As to why do "I do it". No two ways about it Dave. I drank the Kool-Aid too and do it because of sheer joy of "cause I want too". When I see a locomotive fired up for the first time in decades it rocks my world. Has some trickle down effects concerning history, betterment of the museum I volunteer for, but at the top of my list it is strickly because it trips my egotistical trigger. Regards, John.

What happened to BLE 643 wasn't it restored in the 90's, did it ever run? How close to scrapping is it?

The B&LE 643 was restored to operating condition in the 90s. The owner never ran it, as there was/is nowhere to run it. CSX was anti steam then, is anti steam now. CSX is the only way the locomotive could be gotten out in one piece.

The B&LE 643 currently sits on land on, or adjacent to CSX's planned Pittsburgh Intermodal Terminal. It would probably be scrapped unless the owner and CSX reach an agreement to get it out, if it is in fact on the land CSX has purchased.

was it ever fired up?

I thought I would try to map this conversation to help keep track of the topics and subtopics:

Original thesis:
Many steam locomotives will be scrapped soon. Therefore, it is time to be proactive about the issue. Would it be helpful to compile and publish a list of endangered locomotives?

Subtopics:

• Where would the list be maintained? Who would maintain the list?
  
  ---- We need more than a list. We need a national organization.
  
  ---- There needs to be a mechanism to fund the organization.

• A similar list could be done for passenger cars, trolleys, and so on.

• The B&LE 643 is an example of an endangered locomotive.
  
  ---- The motives of the owner are unknown. That is concerning.

• More than a list, we need to revive an interest in railroads, esp. with youth.

Regarding the national organization issue, the NRHS is probably the best resource (disclaimer: I am on the board of NRHS). One of the top priorities at NRHS right now is figuring out who all the players are in rail preservation -- we really don't have a comprehensive index of all the people and projects out there ranging from the big semi-well-funded museums down to the local depot groups.

NRHS is finally focusing on what it wants to be -- in the past it really had no defined goals on the national level (although some chapters did and do). I call your attention to the third paragraph on this page -- http://www.nrhs.com/about -- which indicates the direction the NRHS is heading. The new NRHS mission statement (which is not on the website for some reason and I don't have it in front of me at the moment) states the direction much more clearly, but you get the idea. The change in NRHS won't happen overnight -- this is a relatively new direction set by the new board of directors that came in through the elections in the middle of 2012. The immediate focus is to identify the players and identify funding sources -- the saying is "no money, no mission." It doesn't matter how well-intentioned your mission is if you can't fund it.

Right now NRHS has two key programs that directly benefit rail preservation. RailCamp is helping get young people involved, while the Heritage Grants program has awarded over a half million dollars to worthy preservation projects. These two programs are good starting points, but they need to be expanded upon.

The NRHS has the name recognition outside the well-walled rail preservation community (we can be our own worst enemies) where it can be the leader much like the National Trust. As I said, this change won't happen overnight, but on the other hand there is a recognition that the clock is ticking. The current board definitely puts in more hours and does more work than the old board (which consisted of an unwieldy 175 members) ever did.

Steve Barry
Global Director, NRHS
Editor, Railfan & Railroad

Elsewhere on the North American content and slightly smaller, but nevertheless vulnerable/venerable:


Granted it's not in imminent danger of being scrapped, per se, and the arid climate has been a blessing beyond the massive fire that torched it a dozen and a half years ago, but is continued deterioration in the desert the destiny this notable 1872 V&T veteran deserves?

Thanks John.....I also got into it because I like it and am rewarded by making things happen. This isn't a bad thing.......but it only goes so far.

Bruce has good comments to make about the historical relationship between railroads and the country and citizen's lives.

Both of you include popularity among children and others when they run across events in which they are exposed to trains. Also a very good thing, but limited. WalMart is also popular, but that isn't a good thing.

Here's a situation we all either face or need to face: we have a prospective donor we are courting who's foundation lists historic preservation as something they fund. The guy likes history, but not just railroad history. Our proposal is under consideration along with proposals from the house museum, historic downtown district, and 1915 Vaudeville theatre, and those are just the historic preservation proposals, they also fund other categories of nonprofit endeavors.

What's our rationale for why what we want to do should take precedence over the others?

dave

Dave the point I was trying to make was combining popularity, history and justification on why a donor should consider our cause. I hate, absolutely hate "it's for the children" type of hypocrisy in marketing by mfg and politicians. But in my little focused world this IS actually good for humanity. It is a win win situation for everybody involved. Kids need constructive outlets for energy and creativity, don't have to look very far to see many examples of our dumbing down of society to compare too. The need of focus on family activities and so on {not trying to get touchy feely here but it is true as a society we need to start here at the family level/single parent family}. History comes along with it at no extra cost. Combining the social/human/historical aspects makes for fun learning. Like having a tourist train with an actual destination.

History to those of us who love history is interesting enough to spur us on. To others it must be MADE interesting. How does a good teacher make English language interesting? Many people find history "borrrrrrrrrrrrrrrring". So my idea is to try to kill a number of birds with one stone, as in approach to getting large donors to take notice of our cause. History might not be enough by itself, as pointed out. There are many causes available to people who choose to donate money. Puppies, orphans, industrial/RR history, movie theaters and old whore houses and pic a cause and there is another place to compete with for donations. I stick to my guns on this as I see the need for "us and them" to come together and address some major issues facing society today. To start trying to get kids to be interested in history, horses, competitive shooting, old cars/tractors and railfanning/preservation or model railroading is before they discover sex, drugs and rock and roll. We need to get involved with youth when they are young not young adults. This "rail camp" thing is great for young adults who already have the interest. Again don't have anything to show me right or even potentially headed in the right direction, just an idea that worked for me and many of my generation. Family values were stronger and many things have changed since then, true enough. But we can change our direction if we choose too. I think at a grass roots level you might get some payback both in interest from concerned parents to bring little johnny to your museum and from a donor who might see some of this as "reasoning"? Then again maybe the world is flat and all the Chinese have fallen off! You need to "see and believe" in your own hype to sell it. So why not make it real instead of "marketing strategy". To sell history so we can play trains is a tough sell.

Sorry if this seems off topic from original list part of thread, but I agree with Dave on the point of this coming back to funding {as always}. Without funding or some viable reason to have the list it becomes "wishful foaming". Regards, John.

This isn't off topic because it is what you will have to do if you expect to actually save any of the endangered list. Nothing is endangered because its owner has lots of resources and is happily maintaining it. If that were so it wouldn't be endangered in the first place. Let's assume the owner of the 643 (for example) offers 643 to any railroad museum willing to remove it and preserve it. Let's see.......probably a cool half million to get it anywhere, then another million or so for housing and a simple cosmetic job. The owner isn't going to give you the money along with the hulk. If he had it he would have done it himself. Where will you find it? Let's crowdsource railfans.......the small percentage who think 643 isn't as important as their pet project will get you about $5000 before the scrapper shows up since your time ran out while you were working on nickels and dimes for two years.

So, you approach institutional donors accustomed to large grants. You have no other practical option. They want to know what is special about what you want to fund, and rest assured others are certainly able to tell them why what they want to fund is worthwhile........so how do you answer them?

If you can't answer this, it is useless to contemplate saving endangered rolling stock at all. All you will do is set yourself up for frustration and disappointment.

I'm not at all disagreeing with your premise, but how do you formalize it and articulate it in such a way as to make it a cultural imperative? That's why I posed the question. If we don't know how to explain why we're doing worthy and important things with broad impact, how can we explain it to people who's support we need? How many of us have actually thought through the question for ourselves?

I was hoping about 150 posters would post great supportable reasons so we could all have great, well articulated things to put in our grant applications. The night's not over yet. Anybody?

dave

Tell your friend to buy me some lottery tickets.