With desktop machines the job is even easier. You can still get 100% compliant expansion cards...no converter required:

http://www.amazon.com/b?node=3015423011

I often joke at work (very computer dependent stuff) that I really like the good old ball-peen hammer, they are all REV 1.0 and never need rebooting....... Worst case is you break the handle and replace it for 5 bucks or so.

Cheers, Kevin.

So when it comes to proprietary chips, who makes them and where do they make them?
If they are made in China, as so much else seems to be, then the Chinese are sure to have copied it, illegally of course.....So, finding someone there who can get you the copied chip might be helpful.
That doesn't help with software, but perhaps someone could "collect" old software, and computers and provide service to fix problems? Not a big money business, but no different than repairing old stereos and radios and such....more of a "hobby"....
I have a bit of a collection myself, including a commodore VIC 20, a TRS 80, and a Kaypro with its 5.25 discs with CP-M dos....it still worked last time I started it.....and I'm a bit of a packrat for old cables, adapters and such. I also still have a couple old PC's, one has windows 95 on it.
If anybody needs anything old, I might be able to help you out.

I'd like to see a change in intellectual property law such that when an owner of proprietary information or products willfully chooses to cease producing or supporting his proprietary product at reasonable cost, it is in effect considered abandoned to the public good, and openly available to anybody wishing to take up where the previous owner left off. Then a free market will exist....and if consumers are truly only interested in the latest offering, the old offerings will die off in natural course, not due to market manipulations by proprietors (oddly enough, many of whom are vociferous advocates of free market capitalism). A lot of us were perfectly happy with Windows XP......and I still am. I liked my old cel phone that was just a telephone.........and have yet to need to read QR codes in my daily life for any purpose.

dave

One of the resources you may not realize that exists is the 'up and coming' hobby of 'legacy gaming'. Both of my adult sons are very involved, including looking at Goodwill stores for obsolete computer equipment that can be repaired and adapted. My middle son has become quite adept at reprogramming Motorola chips, writing his own emulation adapters, and otherwise doing all manner of patches to get old games, game machines, and arcade machines to function again. These hobbyists may become more and more valuable in the future, just like old steam hands in the 60's that actually knew how stuff worked and could teach another generation.

I was astounded this Christmas that one of my sons gave the other an original, out of the box Atari, black and white, with Pong on it. He was delighted... immediately tore it apart, ID'ing the chips so he could build one.

Part of this is possibly an inherited trait, as I've made a practice of keeping one surviving 'legacy machine' from each major operating system in running condition at our office. I've got a Windows 3.1, a Windows 95, a Windows 98, Win NT, several XP's, and other gems. It's a lot easier to keep a machine 'on hand' that can run obsolete hardware and software than to arm-wrestle a current machine backwards. Considering the market value of the hardware and software, it's a ridiculously inexpensive solution. They are all tagged as DO NOT DESTROY and rarely used, but when I get clients and projects and media that are unreadable on current devices, the wisdom of archiving entire operating computer systems has justified itself so far.

The rush to scrap out 'useless' computer systems is no different than preserving rail equipment; you hope that somebody out there somewhere has the sense to hang on to something...somewhere.

My favorite 'real world' computer-locomotive 'issue' to date is a certain rebuilt "Alco" on a railroad with a replaced prime-mover, main generator, all control systems, and built on a microprocessor system that was widely reported to be already obsolete when it was installed - 10 years ago. The boards were custom-built by a company that generally exited the business. The designer formed his own new company - but not in the US. Getting replacement boards required a waiver of 'buy american' policy, getting them installed required getting a brand-new (off Ebay) Win98 laptop that could still run the diagnostic and installation firmware routines. We're probably good for another 10 years, but at that point.... Would have probably been better off with a 244 engine and original relays.

Randy, thanks for your interesting posting. What you describe is exactly what I am hearing from the railroad industry specialists who have to deal with the obsolete systems, that the easiest solution is to hang onto a legacy laptop computer with the older operating system and software all installed, at least as long as the disk drive and other hardware still function properly, rather than trying to devise solutions to adapt current laptop computers to work with obsolete onboard hardware.

Which brings us back again to the "other" question of whether there are any organizations in railroad preservation planning for how to deal with this. Maybe you have answered this, perhaps your firm is the only one doing so.

While this is not a big issue at the present time, it is going to get more important in the future when the most recently acquired equipment in the best shape for excursion use requires support of years-old outdated software to service and program the locomotive control system, HEP system, Event Recorder, Cab Signals, ACSES, and HVAC.

PC

Randy --
Thank you very very much for your most informative reply!
I never thought of legacy gaming as a possible source for
obsolete computer software. What an incredibly good idea --
to keep the entire computer and keep it running. You are very
lucky to work for an employer that is smart enough to allow you
to do this. LOL about "arm-wrestling" a modern computer to try
to get it to be backwards-compatible. LOL! And your sons are
on the right track. Keep the metaphorical lock and not just the
metaphorical key -- and learn how to take it apart and fix it.
As long as the hard drive, etc., keep working......

NYCRRson (Kevin) --
LOLOL! I completely agree! Reminds me of the sign I saw
on the Shay (#1925) that came to Railfair 99: "Y 1.9 compliant"
LOL! No need for fancy-dancy computers on those babies!

Dave --
I completely agree about intellectual property law. That has
got to change in the way you suggested -- ASAP.

I am very glad this subject is being discussed here, and I very
much hope that it will be discussed at a TRAIN convention in the
near future (sorry -- forgot the current name). If we do not deal
successfully with this issue, none of the locomotives and LRVs
of the modern era will ever be able to run in any museum or
tourist railroad.

All this sorta makes me long for my beloved SP SD-45s and
SDP-45s -- but then I remember that the oh-so-typically SP
soot and grime on those awesome locomotives was also getting
into the lungs of the crew -- and then I am glad that we have
locomotives that can comply with the EPA's Tier 2, 3, and 4
emissions standards -- all made possible by -- computer
programs on board. Sigh..... (I'm just glad I was around
to experience those beasts growling up Tehachapi in Run 8
with a heavy train. wow.....)

I haven't had much exposure to locomotive computer control systems, but I am familiar with Aerospace systems and the level of software testing and assurance that one must go through to update software on any aircraft from a safety standpoint. While I tend to think on railroad equipment things would be a little more relaxed than on aerospace I have a feeling the FRA would tend to frown on unqualified software getting close to any systems that say interact with say the brakes or throttle systems. Does anyone here have any experience with locomotive control systems? Worst case scenario from a controls standpoint would be a software bug where your emulator crashes going up hill and you are stuck with your throttle in a given position and loose the ability to also apply brakes. Perhaps the FRA would be more lenient on the software side of things if you have mechanical kill switches and over rides? After all you can always stop a train if needed?

I know when you start messing with even a few lines of code that get close to safety of flight critical control systems in aerospace the cost of the paperwork can climb into the millions of $$ fast. Does anyone have any insight into what the FRA software related paperwork requirements would be here?

In Aviation it appears the solution is usually to stick with the antiquated control system for either the life of the aircraft or till you can do a major overhaul with a qualified high $$$ system.

One other interesting thing that I know has happened in modern electronics is a little problem thanks to our European friends. If you look at most modern electronics you will notice the words RoHS compliant. You see all electronic product sold in Europe must be free of hazardous substances such as lead. The problem is that tin solder (no lead) is known to grow whiskers, or experience dendrite formation which eventually kills boards. So virtually all your electronics today has an electrochemical lifespan.

All this begs one greater philosophical question why the heck would you bother preserving a diesel anyways? I mean shy of an F Unit, or an RS something or other they all more or less look the same anyways, if I want to take my children to see a diesel locomotive I will just take them for a ride on metro north and forget your museum. Is showing off the machinery that destroyed one of the most beautiful creations man has ever come up with (the steam locomotive) really the story your museum wants to tell? I realize there is a place for a diesel locomotive, namely providing some motive power to pull your train when the steam locomotive is under repair, or if your museum picks up a freight customer and needs the revenue but in my opinion use your diesel locomotives like you would use your track inspection car. They are depreciating assets solely there to make up for when steam is not running!!!! :)

Hope no one was offended by the humor there.

Even if the engine assumes a mind of its own, if someone is onboard and at least marginally alert they should be able to yank the emergency brake and stop the train (excepting of course, situations with light power, etc.). It may not be the safest, but it still works. On engines that don't have Electronically Controlled Pneumatic brakes (so far the majority do not), the air brake controls should function independent of computer input. Even the new Electronically Controlled Pneumatic brake systems still revert to the older modes in the event of any failure of control, I.E. if you dump the air, it still goes in to emergency even if the electronic signal did not send. (someone may correct me here, but I think if a properly functioning valve on a car detects a decrease in trainline pressure above a set value that aims to prevent "dynamiters," the valve will send out the electronic signal to put all the brakes into emergency.)

Furthermore, there are controls that usually will stop an engine or prevent it from applying power even if the computer controls refuse to slow or shut down. Fuel cut-off switch (not conveniently placed for the crew, but it is a fail-safe), field generator switch on the control stand, and at least on the older locomotives, there are breakers in the electrical cabinet that can be tripped to cut out the generator's load; not an advisable solution, but not something that I haven't seen or heard of.

Bulby,

Those are along some of the same lines I was thinking, however every modern engineered system that contains enough power to cause serious damage to life or property in the event of a malfunction that I have been involved in working on usually goes through a rather hefty Failure mode, effects and criticality analysis (FMECA). This is especially the case and necessary whenever any computer control system is introduced into the loop.

The FMECA is usually quite a costly endeavor that generally requires putting some of the biggest pessimists in a room together (or at least thinking like one) to brainstorm all the different failures that could occur with your equipment and control system and the results that could occur. On the other hand the FMECA usually drives a good deal of both the design and testing in the development stage. Once those are identified the engineers then take more action to either mitigate or contain them. Manual overrides are often considered one form of containment but what happens during the time between things getting out of hand an the human realizing? Things usually happen really fast when an accident unfolds.

I am curious if anyone on this website has any real professional experience with locomotive control systems and could comment further. I am really out of my league on this one but I suspect introducing home brewed marginally tested software into a safety critical control system is bound to raise some real questions to say the least. While the writing of the code is usually quite trivial it is usually the testing of the software/electrical hardware and all the different fault modes that pose the biggest challenges. Whether or not this is something that is feasible for a all volunteer organization to accomplish is something that would be interesting to know. I am curious what if any rigors are applied to railroad equipment. I am sure it is all heavily written down in many large books of code.

One other question that would be worth while asking is how common are retrofit controls in the diesel locomotive world? Is it possible to take a 1980's vintage control system, junk out half the old boards and replace it with something more up to date that someone has already been qualified?

I know you have a whole system of rebuilders out there who can more or less modernize a whole locomotive for you. What does that process usually entail? When locomotives get rebuilt do they ever redo the electronics with something more modern? Are there companies who specialize in making upgrade/retrofit locomotive control packages that have already gone through the required software/electrical hardware qualifications that you can put into an existing locomotive or are they all to specialized? If so do the systems need to be qualified and based on the actual locomotive they are going into or are they more or less modular and easily adaptable to anything they go into?

Responding to the posting by adammil1:

"I am curious if anyone on this website has any real professional experience with locomotive control systems and could comment further."

Yes, several people on this website have experience with locomotive control systems.

"One other question that would be worth while asking is how common are retrofit controls in the diesel locomotive world?"

Very common with the Class Ones and Commuter Rail Operators, the majority of midlife overhauls get control upgrades, and some locomotive owners are installing the packages "in the field".

"I know you have a whole system of rebuilders out there who can more or less modernize a whole locomotive for you. What does that process usually entail?"

If the locomotive is worth the cost of rebuilding to start with, they usually upgrade the control system while replacing the wire and cable. But financially this option is beyond the reach of most museums, which is why this is an issue looking toward the future. I won't get specific about the cost of these systems (plus installation) here because it is just going to start an argument, but it is quite substantial compared with most museum projects. And it is very unlikely any railroad is going to retire a locomotive with a really recently installed control system upgrade and hand it to a museum, they are going to get their money's worth out of the investment first.

"When locomotives get rebuilt do they ever redo the electronics with something more modern? Are there companies who specialize in making upgrade/retrofit locomotive control packages that have already gone through the required software/electrical hardware qualifications that you can put into an existing locomotive or are they all to specialized?"

Yes, there are retrofit package manufacturers, and even several companies who offered systems for a number of years then left the market, with their products now being unsupported orphans, as Randy described earlier. So there is already "turnover" in this industry, bringing the problem of how the equipment owners will deal with that issue, before the locomotive even gets close to preservation time.

"If so do the systems need to be qualified and based on the actual locomotive they are going into or are they more or less modular and easily adaptable to anything they go into?"

Each manufacturers system is more or less a "package", there are options like different computer enclosures to suit the space available in the electrical cabinet and accommodate more or fewer I/O cards. Q-Tron for example builds the QES-III system in several different frame lengths. Unless the locomotive is being rebuilt to a totally generic one-builder standard (like a non-DB GP38-2 upgraded to GP38-3), the software is usually written for the specific customer and application in order to incorporate their requested features and options. Different platforms and equipment generally require their own installation-specific software package. In recent years "programmable parameters" have been built into the control software, so that only a small portion of the file has to be updated to change some of the features rather than reinstalling the entire operating system.

PC

I begin to appreciate the reported words of a modern railway engineer on inspecting a steam locomotive valve gear close up for the first time.

"Oh my God, that's it. That's all there is".

Tim

Consensus of several back channel discussions that have been going on while this thread is running has come up with the suggestion that one of the best organizations to potentially host or support a locomotive software technical library might not be directly associated with preservation. It was mentioned that the National Model Railroad Association (NMRA) already has a functional technical library with many valuable collections, including the Bruce Meyer EMD technical drawing collection, they have a very active interest in electronics and control systems, and they are very diesel oriented.

PC

I'm rather fortunate to have two highly qualified people on staff that know the 'innards' of control systems more than they wish they did; one being the ex-shop supervisor up at Alaska, and the other being an ex-GE technician for field support. So my opinions are highly colored, and they've been further shaded by the rather painful experience of that Alco mentioned before. That's a life's lesson and a little scary for all of us.

For diesel preservation, the electronics creates as much of a headache as thin firebox walls on steam. Pretty much anything beyond -2 EMD electronics crosses over into full microprocessor control. And most folks in railroad preservation are ill-prepared, if at all, as we continue to search out the last surviving tractor-feed ribbon cartridges for the IBM AT running the ticket system that Joe wrote in 1985.

Rather than look at this as a crisis, I think it also bends as an opportunity as well; what railroad preservation can use is a healthy dose of computer geeks, younger and Y2K compliant. They are out there. Look for callouses on thumbs. The generation I raised, and my kids hung out with, is so virtual that they don't even know where to start with something physical, yet are absolutely fascinated by it and eager to learn and now in the 20's-30's generation. There's also a disconnect because they don't feel they have anything to contribute even if they are casually interested in railroads, I'm saying they do. They have no idea there are computers in trains that they might help with. And they can generally devour technical manuals given a chance and some interpretation from the old heads.

Coming from an IT background, the most 'fun' I ever had with computers was learning industrial robotics and controls. Watching an assembly robot physically abuse a process is way more interesting and challenging than an error message on a screen. That's the hook, making something 'real' work with those computer skills. While we grew up the real and struggle with the virtual, the absolute reverse is true of that generation.

So what kind of computer hardware/software exist In a locomotive that can't be rigid up by a guy in his workshop?