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 Post subject: SP Commute "Subs" (Classes 72-IC-1, 72-IC-2 & 72-IC-3)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 7:42 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:42 am
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
I am currently working on the dispositions and current locations of the surviving SP Subs.

A Brief History:

These 3 classes, consisting of a total of 75 cars, supplemented the earlier Harriman coaches starting in 1923, with the last active cars retired in 1985. All cars had 100 seats (the March 1933 SP diagram folio lists capacity as 96).

Class 72-IC-1 (#2085-#2144) was ordered from Pullman by SP in March 1923 and cars were delivered later that year.

Class 72-IC-2 (#2145-#2154) was ordered from Pullman by SP in April 1924 and cars were delivered later that year.

Class 72-IC-3 (#2155-#2159) was ordered from Standard Steel by SP in March 1927 and cars were delivered later that year.

Dispositions:

I combined available disposition info from David Coscia's website and several volumes of the Railway Passenger Car (RPC) Annual, specifically Volume 3 (1976), Volume 4 (1978-1979), Volume 5 (1980-1981), and Volume 6 (1984).

I am still missing or trying to identify several cars, specifically I don't have the SP numbers for 3 cars which were acquired by the Mount Rainier Scenic RR from the Oregon, Pacific & Eastern RR. Does anybody know the identities of these 3 cars, or of any additional survivors I overlooked? Thanks in advance!

Here's what I have:

#2085 as of RPC V. 5, listed as sold to the Taco Bell Amusement Park, listed by Coscia as owned by the California Trolley & RR Corporation. Was the #2085 moved to the Fillmore & Western with the #2155?

#2086 as of RPC V. 3, not listed on active SP roster. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2087 as of RPC V. 4, listed as sold to Sierra RR #16.

#2088 as of RPC V. 3, not listed on active SP roster. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2089 as of RPC V. 6, listed as stored unservicable, later sold to Grand Canyon.

#2090 as of RPC V. 3, not listed on active SP roster. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2091 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, later sold to Virginia & Truckee.

#2092 as of RPC V. 6, listed as stored unservicable, later sold to Grand Canyon.

#2093 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, later sold to WRM.

#2094 as of RPC V. 3, not listed on active SP roster. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2095 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, later sold to Virginia & Truckee.

#2096 as of RPC V. 5, listed as retired. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2097 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, later sold to GGRM.

#2098 as of RPC V. 4, listed as sold to Sierra RR #15.

#2099 as of RPC V. 5, listed as retired. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2100 as of RPC V. 5, listed as retired. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2101 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, later sold to PLA-Niles Canyon.

#2102 as of RPC V. 3, not listed on active SP roster. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2103 as of RPC V. 3, not listed on active SP roster. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2104 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, later sold to Grand Canyon.

#2105 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, listed by Coscia as owned by the Redwood Coast RY Museum.

#2106 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, later sold to Virginia & Truckee.

#2107 as of RPC V. 3, not listed on active SP roster. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2108 as of RPC V. 3, not listed on active SP roster. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2109 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, later sold to Virginia & Truckee.

#2110 as of RPC V. 3, not listed on active SP roster. Listed by Coscia as privately owned and located in Folsom, CA.

#2111 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, later sold to Grand Canyon.

#2112 as of RPC V. 6, not listed on active SP roster. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2113 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, later sold to WRM.

#2114 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, later sold to PLA-Niles Canyon.

#2115 as of RPC V. 6, listed as stored unservicable, later sold to Grand Canyon.

#2116 as of RPC V. 3, not listed on active SP roster. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2117 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, later sold to Grand Canyon.

#2118 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, later sold to Yreka Western.

#2119 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, later sold to Grand Canyon.

#2120 as of RPC V. 6, listed as stored unservicable, later sold to Grand Canyon.

#2121 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, later sold to Grand Canyon.

#2122 as of RPC V. 3, not listed on active SP roster. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2123 as of RPC V. 3, not listed on active SP roster. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2124 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, later sold to Fred Kempner and used on the Yreka Western, sold in 2006 to Oregon Coast Scenic RR, car is currently stored in Yreka awaiting funds to become available to move it to the OCSR.

#2125 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, later sold to Yreka Western.

#2126 as of RPC V. 3, not listed on active SP roster. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2127 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, later sold to Fred Kempner and used on the Yreka Western, sold in 2006 to Oregon Coast Scenic RR, moved to OCSR and named Wilson River.

#2128 as of RPC V. 6, listed as stored unservicable, later sold to Grand Canyon.

#2129 as of RPC V. 5, listed as retired. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2130 as of RPC V. 6, listed as stored unservicable, later sold to Grand Canyon.

#2131 as of RPC V. 5, listed as retired. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2132 as of RPC V. 5, listed as retired. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2133 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, later sold to Grand Canyon.

#2134 as of RPC V. 5, listed as retired. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2135 as of RPC V. 6, listed as stored unservicable, later sold to Grand Canyon.

#2136 as of RPC V. 5, listed as retired. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2137 as of RPC V. 3, not listed on active SP roster. Listed by Coscia as owned by Yreka Western.

#2138 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster. There is some conflicting info on the #2138: Coscia lists the #2138 as owned by Grand Canyon. However, this was 1 of 3 Subs owned by Fred Kempner and acquired in 2006 by OCSR. Like the #2124, the #2138 is currently stored in Yreka. Did Kempner acquire his 3 cars from Grand Canyon, or is that simply an error?

#2139 as of RPC V. 4, listed as sold to Sierra RR #12.

#2140 as of RPC V. 4, listed as sold to Sierra RR #14.

#2141 as of RPC V. 3, not listed on active SP roster. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2142 as of RPC V. 6, listed as stored unservicable, later sold to Grand Canyon.

#2143 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, later sold to GGRM.

#2144 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, later sold to OERM.

#2145 as of RPC V. 6, listed as stored unservicable, later sold to Grand Canyon.

#2146 as of RPC V. 3, not listed on active SP roster. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2147 as of RPC V. 5, listed as retired. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2148 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, later sold to Virginia & Truckee.

#2149 as of RPC V. 3, not listed on active SP roster. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2150 as of RPC V. 3, not listed on active SP roster. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2151 as of RPC V. 3, not listed on active SP roster. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2152 as of RPC V. 6, listed as stored unservicable, later sold to Grand Canyon.

#2153 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster. Coscia lists the #2153 as located in Williams, but not in the Grand Canyon RY section. Is/was the #2153 privately owned and leased to GCRY, or is this another simple error and the car is/was owned by GCRY outright?

#2154 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, later sold to PLA-Niles Canyon.

#2155 as of RPC V. 5, listed as sold to the Taco Bell Amusement Park. The #2155 is listed by Coscia twice: as owned by the California Trolley & RR Corporation, and as located on the Fillmore & Western.

#2156 as of RPC V. 6, listed on active SP roster, later sold to GGRM.

#2157 as of RPC V. 5, listed as retired. Disposition/current status unknown.

#2158 as of RPC V. 3, not listed on active SP roster. Listed by Coscia as owned by Grand Canyon.

#2159 as of RPC V. 5, listed as retired. Disposition/current status unknown.

Sources:

1. "Railway Passenger Car Annual Volume 3" by W. David Randall (RPC Publications, 1976)

2. "Railway Passenger Car Annual Volume 4" by W. David Randall (RPC Publications, 1978)

3. "Railway Passenger Car Annual Volume 5" by W. David Randall (RPC Publications, 1980)

4. "Railway Passenger Car Annual Volume 6" by W. David Randall (RPC Publications, 1984)

5. David Coscia's surviving SP equipment and rolling stock page: http://coscia-espee.info/sp_equipment.html

6. Richard A. Percy's SP Commute page: http://espee.railfan.net/commute_cars.html

7. E.O. Gibson's page on SP's Peninsula commute operations (Part 1: Harrimans & Subs): http://www.wx4.org/to/foam/sp/san_jose/depot/commcars/cars.html

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

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Ted Brumberg


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 Post subject: Re: SP Commute "Subs" (Classes 72-IC-1, 72-IC-2 & 72-IC-3)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:01 am 

Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:21 pm
Posts: 93
#2138 is not at GCR, and to my knowledge never has been. I've been here since 1998 and none of the SP subs have left the property in that time. In fact, I believe there were 17 that arrived in 1989, and all of them are still here. 13 in active service (including 2153) and 4 parts cars.

Eric


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 Post subject: Re: SP Commute "Subs" (Classes 72-IC-1, 72-IC-2 & 72-IC-3)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 7:26 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:56 am
Posts: 380
Location: Northern California
SP 2093 and 2113 were donated to the Bay Area Electric Railroad Association, not sold, and are on display at the Western Railway Museum, Rio Vista Junction, CA. The cars are kept indoors and have been restored keeping their wooden window sash. These cars were designed to be converted to electric cars when SP electrified the Peninsula operation, which may yet happen. These cars have 96 seats and two toilet compartments. The subs and the Harrimans differ in that the subs are designed for high level platform loading, the Harrimans are not.


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 Post subject: Re: SP Commute "Subs" (Classes 72-IC-1, 72-IC-2 & 72-IC-3)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:46 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
Posts: 1578
Location: Southern California
SP 2144 at Orange Empire had at least one intermediate owner. I will see if I can find that information.

David Johnston wrote:
The subs and the Harrimans differ in that the subs are designed for high level platform loading, the Harrimans are not.
This is very obvious when the two styles are coupled next to each other. The vestibule side doors show this difference -- on the Harriman cars the top of the door opening is the bottom of the letterboard; on the subs it is almost at the top of the letterboard.

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Brian Norden


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 Post subject: Re: SP Commute "Subs" (Classes 72-IC-1, 72-IC-2 & 72-IC-3)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 12:26 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:06 pm
Posts: 51
Thank you Rainier Rails for asking yhe question that I've been asking for almost nine years now: which SP subs do we have? I anxiously await any information that arises!

Brian Wise
General Manager
Mt. Rainier Scenic Railroad


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 Post subject: Re: SP Commute "Subs" (Classes 72-IC-1, 72-IC-2 & 72-IC-3)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:25 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 3:04 pm
Posts: 97
Location: San Jose, CA
#2085 and #2155 are owned by the California Trolley and Railroad Corporation and remain stored at the Santa Clara County Fairgrounds in San Jose, California.


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 Post subject: Re: SP Commute "Subs" (Classes 72-IC-1, 72-IC-2 & 72-IC-3)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:50 am 

Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:57 am
Posts: 184
2153 is definitely owned and operated solely by Grand Canyon Railway.


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 Post subject: Re: SP Commute "Subs" (Classes 72-IC-1, 72-IC-2 & 72-IC-3)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:47 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:42 am
Posts: 1723
Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Thanks to everyone who responded!

Have a Merry Fourth Day of Christmas and a Happy New Year!

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Ted Brumberg


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 Post subject: Re: SP Commute "Subs" (Classes 72-IC-1, 72-IC-2 & 72-IC-3)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:28 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:37 pm
Posts: 263
Location: Niles Canyon Railway, near Sunol, CA
Per http://www.ncrr.org/roster/PLA_Roster_Jan_2009.doc:

SP 2101 Coach Pullman, 1924, SP Class 72-IC-1
80’ / Steel, Round Roof Heavyweight Suburban Commute / 60 tons
History: Built new as Southern Pacific Railroad (SP) coach #2101 for commute service on the Peninsula between San Jose and San Francisco; Retired in 1985 and sold to the California State Railroad Museum; acquired from the CSRM in 2004 after years of damage/vandalism while stored at the ex-SP Sacramento Shop yard. The interior was completely rebuilt by the PLA while the exterior was repaired by replacing all the windows, fixing rusted sashes and roof repairs during 2004-2007. In service, Brightside, CA (Update Sunday Dec 28 2014: In use tonight on the last "Train of Lights" of the 2014 season.)
_______________________________________________________________________________________
SP 2114 Coach Pullman, 1924, SP Class 72-IC-1
80’ / Steel, Round Roof Heavyweight Suburban Commute / 60 tons
History: Built new as Southern Pacific Railroad (SP) coach #2114 for commute service on the Peninsula between San Jose and San Francisco; Retired in 1985 and sold to the California State Railroad Museum; acquired from the CSRM in 2004 after years of damage/vandalism while stored at the ex-SP Sacramento Shop yard. Stored, Brightside, CA
_______________________________________________________________________________________
SP 2154 Coach Pullman, 1924, SP Class 72-IC-2
80’ / Steel, Round Roof Heavyweight Suburban Commute / 60 tons
History: Delivered new as Southern Pacific Railroad (SP) coach #2154 for commute service on the Peninsula between San Jose and San Francisco in October 1924; Retired in 1985 and sold to the California State Railroad Museum; acquired from the CSRM in 2008 after years of damage/vandalism while stored at the ex-SP Sacramento Shop yard. Stored, Sunol, CA

(Update Dec 28 2014: One of the ex-CSRM cars, I believe S.P. 2154, had localized roof damage ~2 years ago. An oak tree branch fell on the roof while it was on a storage track. The dented roof was subsequently fixed, and a ~24-layer "Hydro-Stop" coating system applied to the roof, which should keep it watertight for decades. (NCRy standard for all rebuilt cars.) This car has much less carbody and window area rust than is usual with these commute cars.)

- Doug Debs


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 Post subject: Re: SP Commute "Subs" (Classes 72-IC-1, 72-IC-2 & 72-IC-3)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:14 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:56 am
Posts: 380
Location: Northern California
Doug, I thought Golden Gate Railroad Museum had quite a few of the subs at Hunters Point. Do you know what happened to them?


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 Post subject: Re: SP Commute "Subs" (Classes 72-IC-1, 72-IC-2 & 72-IC-3)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:26 am 

Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:46 am
Posts: 100
Location: Elko, NV
Great Western Railroad Museum (Fred Kepner) purchased their three cars- 2127, 2124, and 2138- about 1986. YW used the 2138 and 2127 on their "Blue Goose" excursion trains up until those ended, the #2127 as noted is now in service on the Oregon Coast Scenic as the "Wilson River", the #2138 is still on its wheels in front of the Yreka depot waiting shipment north. The body of the #2124 is on the ground just south of the YW shop, off the side of the tracks...been there for well over twenty years now. The #2138 can only be a mistake in the records, as it's been in Yreka since before the Grand Canyon started up.

To answer the question about the Golden Gate Museum cars once at Hunter's Point, I don't know how many they had but when they were forced to vacate they sold five of them to the Nevada Commission for the Reconstruction of the V&T Railway- these are the five cars on the list erroneously listed as being sold to the Virginia & Truckee, which is a completely different entity than the Commission. The Commission paid to store these five cars at the Western Pacific Railroad Museum in Portola, where they were for a couple years, then once the Commission figured out how much it would cost them to make the cars useable they sold them to the Timber Heritage Association. These five are now stored in Samoa, California, immediately below the famed Samoa Cookhouse. THA hopes to one day use them on their long-proposed tourist train on the old NWP around Humboldt Bay. I see at least three other cars on the list shown as sold to GGRM.

The OP&E purchased six of these cars when they started up their tourist operation...if three went to the MRSR, where did the other three go? Are these the ones on the California Western? They've got several down there, including at least a couple cut down into open air observation cars, similar to the one on MRSR.

Jeff Moore
Elko, NV


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 Post subject: Re: SP Commute "Subs" (Classes 72-IC-1, 72-IC-2 & 72-IC-3)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:43 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:42 am
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Thanks, Doug and Jeff, for all the info!

Regarding the 5 cars I listed as Virginia & Truckee, I had shortened this from the NV Commission for the Reconstruction of the V&T RY (oops!).

As far as the OP&E goes, both the OP&E and Yreka Western were Kyle properties, so I'm wondering if 3 of the Subs were moved from Roseburg to YW, and the other 3 were sold to MRSR. Coscia lists 3 cars as owned by YW (these are not the Great Western RR Museum cars): #2118, #2125, and #2137. Or maybe the 3 cars listed as Yreka Western were sold to MRSR and the 3 other cars went to the California Western? Can anyone provide confirmation either way?

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Have a Merry Seventh Day of Christmas and a Happy New Year!

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Ted Brumberg


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 Post subject: Re: SP Commute "Subs" (Classes 72-IC-1, 72-IC-2 & 72-IC-3)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:32 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:46 am
Posts: 100
Location: Elko, NV
We do have a little bit of a timing problem here...

The OP&E purchased their six cars in 1971, when they commenced passenger operations, and retired them in 1972. Fred Stindt's book on the OP&E indicates the cars were either sold or scrapped in the years afterwards. Did the three cars MRSR now have sit in Cottage Grove for a full decade before MRSR started up, or did they go somewhere else in between?

It is possible some of the OP&E cars went to the California Western...Kyle, through their subsidiary Mendocino Coast Railway, applied to lease the railroad from Georgia Pacific and operate it in 1977. Kyle at the time had an ex-SP two unit articulated coach on the YW they transferred to the California Western...it's possible that if there were any of the old "subs" wasting away in Cottage Grove they may have been sent to the CWR as well. Speaking of that, here's a recent photograph of one of the "subs" sitting in Fort Bragg:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2073/356 ... d42a_z.jpg

...and there's a picture of a former "sub" cut down to an open air car on the following page:

http://www.visitmendocino.com/christmas-skunk-train

I can speak with some degree of certainty the only examples of these cars Yreka Western ever owned came to the road very recently, around the middle to late 2000s. YW picked up these three, together with an ex-UP coach and two or three of SP's "Economy" baggage cars, from the California State Railroad Museum when they initiated their big equipment purge. I don't have car numbers immediately available to check against the three cars Coscia has listed as being owned by the YW...however, if those numbers are cars belonging to California State Railroad Museum before going to YW, that would be them, if not the only other possibility of which I can think is that the cars may have been owned by the YW and actually used by one of the other Kyle roads, likely the California Western. The three cars YW did own were near basket cases when they arrived on the property, and the railroad scrapped all of these cars within the last 3-4 years.

Prior to the arrival of the three cars from CSRM, the YW only had the three "subs" leased from the Great Western Museum. All indications are they came direct from SP in 1986...while reviewing old issues of Pacific Rail News, I ran across a news item in the November 1986 issue crediting three cars as having gone to the McCloud River- these could only be the three cars in question, as while McCloud certainly did not purchase them, the Great Western Museum had been trying to establish itself on the McCloud, and 1986 came right as relationships between the museum and the railroad broke down, resulting in a period of litigation lasting for an extended period of time. The museum instead leased them, along with an old Trailer Train flat car the museum had outfitted with benches and railings for McCloud excursions, to the YW for use on their passenger excursions starting around 1987.

Finally, here's the interesting note- the same news issue indicates SP had initially sold 10 "Subs" to the California State Railroad Museum and Willamette Valley Railroad...however, those deals fell through and SP instead sold the three to the Great Western Railroad Museum and the other seven to the Cayahoga Valley Railroad in Ohio...any idea if those were ever delivered, and if so are they still there? Doing a Google Images search on that railroad shows them with a large number of streamlined lightweight passenger cars, with nary a "sub" in sight...

Interesting discussion...

Happy New Year!

Jeff Moore
Elko, NV


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 Post subject: Re: SP Commute "Subs" (Classes 72-IC-1, 72-IC-2 & 72-IC-3)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:14 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:42 am
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Thanks, Jeff, for all the additional info!

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Have a Merry Seventh Day of Christmas and a Happy New Year!

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Ted Brumberg


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