My reading on the current situation with this locomotive seems that there isn't a place for it to run and thus, no need to continue any kind of restoration that may have been started a few years back.

In any event, does anyone know of the status of the locomotive's mechanical condition? I've read that when it was initially restored in the 1980's, a very thorough job was done. That being said like other locomotives such as the J, from hindsight it would only require a FRA form 4 evaluation and related work that the survey reveals (which could be very extensive). This is all speculation and I'm not saying any of this is factual, it's merely what I've derived from a quick run across google. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Best,
DC

My source-I am a Cotton Belt Rail Historical Society member, and good friends with Bill Bailey, former CMO of 819 and Darryl Cason who is also a long time 819 crewman. I've seen records and had an opportunity to examine the engine for myself numerous times. I've spent over 100 hours in a year 'working for free' for museum projects at the Arkansas Railroad Museum, but have been told by Peter Smykla, BOD member, that does not make me a volunteer.

Disclaimer-I am not a member of the BOD of the CBRHS, my opinions are not official positions of the BOD or the CBRHS.

First-there absolutely were/are places to run. Others interested in leasing the engine, even the UP had offered track time in the 90's. KCS was very interested 5 years ago when the last efforts to restore/run 819 were destroyed by internal forces.

The 819 is in superb shape. The boiler would of passed form 4 with flying colors, 90% of the ultrasound was finished when the machine broke. There are surely minor issues that would turn up as the rest of the inspection was finished. The brake shoes are worn out, and they are not easy to come by. The trailing truck has wear plates on the casting for the slides on the wheel bearing case, these plates are worn out IMHO.

The effort was stopped due to BOD policies, emergency building roof repairs robbing the 819 fund of it's cash, volunteers being told they were not really volunteers at all, loss of momentum, etc.

I've always wanted to ask, for instance, what it would cost to re-flue the 819. I keep hearing wild figures thrown around and I don't believe any of them really. Figure I heard two days ago was about 70k and a steam locomotive expert from OKC could do it, I'm throwing that one out as just sounding silly. Figure being thrown around other times is in the 275k range. Anybody want to chime in with a guess?

Robert Longhofer

Be very careful with the steam "experts". Do your homework before signing over your checkbook. There are charlatans roaming out there and there are good guys out there.
When 1522 suffered her damage from the derailment with 30 miles on an overhaul, we considered another engine. We discussed 819 and a couple of respected members of the steam community told us not to waste our time because the folks down in Pine Bluff would not even listen to an offer.
We looked at Frisco 4500 and made a pitch to the city of Tulsa to buy/borrow/lease it, return it to service and at the end of the lease return a servicable engine to them. We were stonewalled by the city until we just said the heck with it and went back to work on the 1522.
The word in the steam community back in the day was a couple of the "old timers" in the 819 group really burned their bridges with the UP after the merger and prior to it had gotten on SP's last nerve.
This is tragic as 819 is a great engine and if handled and run correctly could work with the best of them.
We in the SLSTA learned very early in the game that having a steam engine ready to run and $5 will get you a coffee at Starbucks. You have to earn your respect with the railroads or you will do just like the 819 is doing. Sit and rust!

No, never has been, just a derail and a switch away from the Pine Bluff mainline, same as everyone else. I'm not saying the switch was not close to being pulled, but it never got done for whatever the reason.

What Mr. Frisco says sounds very accurate according to what I have heard from the 819 steam crew, and believe me when I say several people on the crew were NOT happy about what was said to the UP and the consequences of it-trust me, they really had no need to pull the switch. What happened there was a symptom, not a diagnosis.

What the 819, and the ARM, needs, is a influx of fresh blood and ideas. But the BOD has become insular. There are basically 4 people who run the CBRHS and the museum now, volunteers are really only welcome if they are willing to come in, do exactly what they are told, and then get the hell out.

Robert
CBRHS member
the above is not an official position of the CBRHS or it's BOD

If that is indeed that case, it is sad indeed. I've been told several times, and agree with everything said, that the following things are successful to a group's survival (besides money, and the wise, prudent, and correct use of it):
-collaboration within the group
-collaboration between one's group and other groups and railroad entities
-a willingness to work with and train the next, younger generation that actively comes to help, instead of pushing them away.

My .02

A wise steam guru once told me "More engines have quit running due to politics and bickering than mechanical reasons". I think the 819 is a classic case of that.

Without fanning flames, what kind of ignition was applied to the bridges between U.P. and the other big operators? One might think that a complete change of introduction to the U.P. might garner a new policy. I realize, railroads have long memories, but new people, new approach, a little humility and conciliatory approach...? Certainly, U.P. knows the value of showing the flag, fallen or not.

I don't think a new introduction will do the job any more. To begin with you need an organized, cohesive and professional group and a plan before you even think of approaching a railroad.
I know of two instances where they burned bridges with the UP. Once in 1990 at the NRHS convention in St. Louis. They had a tankload of something that may have resembled oil, but was pretty well swampwater and had no heat in it. They were offered a load of good oil and the powers that be in the group had a screaming hissy fit and turned it down.
Fast forward a couple years to where they were offered an opportunity to doublehead with a UP engine and were told "We don't need your Damn Yankee engine". According to reliable sources, they were just as obstinate with the SP prior to the merger, making demands and "dictating" what they were going to do.
From what I observed watching the engine run, it was a really nice engine begging for someone who knew what they were doing to run it.
You can only pee on people's feet so many times and they will leave you alone.
In crude language, they were like the flea floating down the river with an erection and calling for the drawbridge to open.
An example of ego puffing in it's extreme!

New introduction or not, it doesn't change the systemic problems at the core of this group. As such, the 819 sits.

If anything, this thread and others show that our own vanity, in-fighting, and internal politics are our own worst enemies.

Railroads are businesses, and most people in a "decision making" capacity from the local trainmaster on up are professionals. They tend to take their job seriously, and thus if you ever want to work with them, you need to act accordingly.

Another fine example on why you should trust about half of what you read on the internet. I had a sneaking suspicion that it had to do with internal politics and not the long governing arm of an otherwise steam-friendly class one.

It's refreshing to hear that 819 is in such decent mechanical shape. I'm not sure of the exact number of miles she accumlated since her debut in 1986, but I don't recall it being very extensive, does anyone care to elaborate on that? Her flue time would have expired in 2001.

I remember she used to have a fleet of passenger cars that would accompany her on the excursions. Were any of them retained or were they all sold? My memory seems to recall a listing where a number of those cars were put up for sale.

Thanks to all for the info.

Best,
DC

I think last trip was 1993. Probably less then 5000 miles total. Had a few to Tyler, one to St. Louis I guess, at least one to Little Rock, several to Fordyce.

The cars are a whole new can of worms. All that the CBRHS owns now that went on tour, I think, are the power car, commissary car, tool car, and a passenger car. I don't think any others were owned by the CBRHS, the rest were privately owned by I guess 3 individuals. They got sold off pretty quick after the trips stopped, from what I gather. A lotta bad feelings and blood over that too. All I can say, is that if you let private cars into your consist, and volunteer money and donated materials go into getting the cars ready, you need to FIRST hash out ALL the details in writing to include such things as what operation the group is entitled to, how long, and what happens if the cars are sold soon after restoration, and then make sure those terms are common knowledge to the members.

Records are hard to come by, even tho state law says I can legally see ANY record. I was flat refused a copy of the by-laws, finally had a friendly BOD member copy his.

I have not given up on 819 or the ARM, but I'm afraid it may come down to waiting a few more years for some more of the BOD to go into 'permanent' retirement. I am desperately seeking support, but it's hard to find....

Robert

1993 was 3 years before the UP merger. If they didn't turn a wheel from then until the merger in 1996, that certainly cannot be blamed on Union Pacific.

Sounds like they didn't get along well with SP from 1993 on.

Echoing 1522's statement, several steam locomotives sit because they came across to railroads as the railroads owe them a favor...they do not, as they are a business and it's not to have someone's ego inflated because they are running on a Class One. I once had gotten tentative permission from TWO Class Ones to run an excurion over a weekend. I presented it at a Board meeting, and they promptly killed it...and it was with the Class Ones own passenger equipment! If I could find an appropriate locomotive, MONEY, and good people,I might be inclined to make a run at it myself....

Sorry that this conversation is dead and I'm posting on it, but 819 had its ultrasound machine ordered 2 weeks ago as of December 31 2014. From a large person in the 819 business, she was taken out of service in 1993 because the flues in her were still to FRA specifications. Had she had new flues, she would have operated till 2001

Your information is completely wrong, honestly. 819 was unable to go on further excursions in 1993 because of the traffic and mergers of that time(and various people problems, if you wish). She was steamed up somewhat regular on the museum grounds up to 1999 or so.

Nothing is happening, or has happened, significantly, with 819 in a lot of years, say 10+ at this point, and nothing is going to happen for perhaps a few more. There is no money, no plans, no people, no timeline. PERIOD. My source? The hundreds of hours I've spent in the museum in the past year.

I wish it was different. I am distributing the truth in the interest of transparency.

Robert Longhofer,
Cotton Belt Rail Historical Society and Arkansas Railroad Museum member and volunteer.