Greetings!

I have been on a quest to find a set of paint codes which I could use to get some New York Central 'Light Gray' made up in an acrylic enamel or equivalent to do some painting on our NRHS Chapter's passenger cars.

I started with the DuPont paint codes as provided in Doughty's NYC passenger car book and on the car lettering diagrams I have. (I am painting the window bands on our Budd built, former NYC 'Empire State Express' coaches/RPO out of faded MTA blue.) Those codes crossed over as red.

The URHS was kind enough to share their IMRON paint codes for their repaint of the NYC 'Hickory Creek'. The colors look good on the web, but I can't get the colors made in anything than IMRON gallons which is too much $$$. The Adirondack Scenic Railroad was also kind enough to share their NAPA Crossfire paint codes for their grays on their F's and train set, but after doing a little painting with their light gray, it appears too dark.

With all that said, I was wondering if anyone else might have some NYC gray (most interested in light gray, but would like to have dark also) paint info they would be willing to share?

Any help or thoughts is appreciated. I need to take a look at some model colors too as another point of reference.

Thanks!

Until later,
Chris Hauf



Rochester Chapter NRHS Fall Foliage Excursions

crhauf@frontiernet.net

I painted ex-NYC sleeper "Cascade Lane" a couple of years ago and I got the paint codes directly from Dupont. They have historical records of railroad paint schemes on file, and many of them have been converted to modern paints. The paint I used was Imron, but they likely have it other types of paint also. I hear Cyntari (spelling?), also made by Dupont, is a much cheaper and safer paint to use now days.

> industrial imron is one thrid the cost of automotive imorn. We use a 3 part PPG equivalent of imron, same shine last as long but much safer to use. It does cost though. In paint remember you get what you pay for. The cheaper paints just don't hold up. We tried a sherwin williams industrial paint on our Lake shore electric car and 6 years later the colors in no way shape or form resemble what we put on and on top of it all it's pealing off in sheets!
and yes the paint company's can match old colors. Try matching B&O passenger dark blue! we were told that it was originally 2 blues mixed with black by paint shop people. we did get a great match.

irss@eriecoast.com

>> industrial imron is one thrid the cost of automotive imron.

That's what I used on the sleeper...Industrial Imron.

Rob,

Thanks for the post. I will have to try contacting Dupont directly to see if they have codes for something other than IMRON as I am looking for an acrylic enamel paint like Centari. This paint job is designed to be a 5-7 year, just make the cars look better (that faded MTA blue on the window bands is awful!) until we get some more time for serious cosmetics (a possible return to all stainless on the cars) and nothing more.

As an FYI, when I gave my paint guy the URHS's Hickory Creek IMRON codes(Light gray IMRON (HPC) 4Y140P), he was not able to cross it over to any of the paint systems he carries(ICI, Sherwin Williams and several more) and he even called his competitor who carries Dupont. They could only make those codes in IMRON and nothing else like Centari.

Normally, if that is the case, a small sample (1 pint or even less sometimes) for example can usually be mixed, sprayed out and matched (visually or through the use of a spectrophotometer/color matching software). Sadly, they could only do IMRON gallons! That is a lot of $$$ to get a paint match in another system. Have a small sprayout lying around somewhere (preferrably not having sat in the sun for any length of time ;) )

The amusing/frustrating part of all of this is that I am actually a color scientist by training and by profession (I work in digital imaging and not paint, however.) so I understand all the color issues with mixing, matching and viewing of paint samples. However, without a good starting point, all the science in the world can't match the art that was the original formula creation. ;)

Thanks again and I will post any more info I find. This speaks volumes to some group starting a website where all of this paint info is collected. Just in the past week, I saw another person on the quest for the same colors I am. While not everyone may agree on the perfect formula for paint X, it would be nice to have a single place for railroad preservationists to go to at least get a recommended starting place.

Until later,
Chris

P.S. Nice job on that sleeper! What is its history and what is it being used for now?

> I painted ex-NYC sleeper "Cascade
> Lane" a couple of years ago and I got
> the paint codes directly from Dupont. They
> have historical records of railroad paint
> schemes on file, and many of them have been
> converted to modern paints. The paint I used
> was Imron, but they likely have it other
> types of paint also. I hear Cyntari
> (spelling?), also made by Dupont, is a much
> cheaper and safer paint to use now days.


Rochester Chapter NRHS Fall Foliage Excursions

crhauf@frontiernet.net

Jack,

I agree completely. You get what you pay for.

I did some "preservation" paint jobs about 5 years ago on some of our cars using an industrial alkyd enamel. While it has kept the rust down, it has all chalked and is not looking too good now. On the flip side, the Erie caboose we painted 8 years ago with ICI Autocolor (3-part) and the PC caboose I painted last year (Sherwin Williams Acrylyd Plus 3 part urethane) look great! The Erie has needed a buffing or two, but a little elbow grease brings the shine right back. But, like you said, those paint jobs were a decent chunk of change.

Yet, our Lehigh Valley RS-3m which was stripped to bare metal and professionally painted with IMRON a little over 10 years ago has gone bad, but I am not sure if the fault all lies in the paint.

Want to share your B&O blue formula? We have a B&O baggage car that needs a repaint too!

Thanks again!

Until later,
Chris

> and yes the paint company's can match old
> colors. Try matching B&O passenger dark
> blue! we were told that it was originally 2
> blues mixed with black by paint shop people.
> we did get a great match.


Rochester & Genesee Valley Railroad Museum

crhauf@frontiernet.net

> P.S. Nice job on that sleeper! What is its
> history and what is it being used for now?

It was built in 1939 and was mainly used on the Empire State Express through Southern Ontario until the late 50's. The New York Central then sold it to Canadian Pacific who ran it in Toronto to Montreal pool service under the name "Brookdale" the late 60's. It was then donated to the Canadian Railway Museum in Delson, Quebec. They basically let it sit and rot until 1993 when it was acquired by the Elgin County Railway Museum in St. Thomas, Ontario where it sits today.


Elgin County Railway Museum

Hi, Chris:

Remember, IMRON is a plastic compound, not a paint with pigments, hence the inability to replicate it with a paint.

URHS had similar problems at the time the Erie E8's were painted, though in that case the process was in the other direction (going from Dulux paint codes to IMRON chemical formulations).

All things considered, why not just break out the cans of Aircraft Remover, strip the window bands and be done with it? It'll probably be just as much work, be less expensive, and look lots better than a stop-gap paint job...

Best Regards,
John Isaksen

johni@warwick.net

John,

Thanks for the note.

That is true that IMRON and acrylic paints are different animals from a formulation/colorant perspective, yet it is very possible that manufacturers and others may have found successful formulas for both to give reasonable matches between the two especially since this is a mid-gray. Depending on your goals and the color you need to match, making good matches between two widely different materials may be very possible. If it wasn't, things like color photography and color television would never work. Your television and your skin have very little in common from a colorant/composition standpoint, but people still look okay on a TV screen( so long as it is adjusted properly ;) ) Believe me, I live color matches everyday in my profession as a color scientist. It just appears in this case, that the work to cross over the IMRON gray to another paint system simply wasn't done or I haven't the right person with the right set of numbers or an IMRON sample I could have measured and matched!

And as for stripping the cars, the real issue is that the window bands are pretty beat up. From 61 years of rocks and other debris being hurled at them and from having the stainless scuffed to allow better paint adhesion when they were painted by the MTA and possibly NYC, just stripping the paint might be closer to what they originally were. Yet the cars may not look very attractive in contrast to having the window bands painted with gloss paint and with the dings prefilled with body filler. From my understanding, having painted gray window bands was not un-prototypical for the NYC in the 1950's as they painted many of their stainless cars' window bands (dark gray actually) and letterboards (dark gray with light gray letters) for exactly the reason we think it is the best way to go for now; the window bands were banged up and not very attractive. With all of their original stainless skirting removed and their long haul seats replaced with 2x2 commuter walk-overs, the cars are probably better represented as 1950's pool cars rather than 1941 Empire State Express coaches although our eventual goal would be 1941 sans skirting.

Thanks again and good to hear from you. It has been many years since we last talked.

Until later,
Chris

> Hi, Chris:

> Remember, IMRON is a plastic compound, not a
> paint with pigments, hence the inability to
> replicate it with a paint.

> URHS had similar problems at the time the
> Erie E8's were painted, though in that case
> the process was in the other direction
> (going from Dulux paint codes to IMRON
> chemical formulations).

> All things considered, why not just break
> out the cans of Aircraft Remover, strip the
> window bands and be done with it? It'll
> probably be just as much work, be less
> expensive, and look lots better than a
> stop-gap paint job...

> Best Regards,
> John Isaksen


Rochester & Genesee Valley Railroad Museum

crhauf@frontiernet.net