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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:11 am 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 1173
That article brings up an interesting question. I note that there is a bit of possibly-intentional 'cognitive dissonance' between the statistics for actual visitors and the use of 'statewide' demographics for the large percentage of "in-state" visitors. Almost certainly from the numbers given, this includes the New York City area, which is neither particularly representative of the 'rest' of the state or necessarily productive of large numbers of 'diverse' people currently interested in or willing to come to the Adirondacks.

This leads me to wonder whether ASR has, or is planning on establishing, a liaison or active participation in ADI or ANCA. Or has developed approaches to appeal to potential 'diverse' groups, provide amenities to cater to their desires or choices, etc. I agree that this represents a potentially enormous untapped market. Increased language accommodation? Assisted daycare facilities to help with small children who can't cost-effectively 'participate' in the ride itself?

Of course, it remains to be seen what the 'usual suspects' who have supported the trail idea will do to support ... or try to torpedo ... a "diversity initiative" that might bring large numbers of ... you know, urban people ... to walk up and down behind their properties. Perhaps I'm being less than kind to them, based on what I've seen them already do and say. It's almost worth pushing the diversity initiative high and far just to watch the fun and then keep public attention focused on their behavior...

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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:40 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:15 pm
Posts: 146
Location: At large
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You also have to understand that there seems to be an attitude up there - particularly in Placid - that the 'railroad had its chance and didn't deliver', fair or not, so people are willing to let the trail concept have a shot even if the numbers are fuzzy, preservation law is present, and the studies can be severely flawed. It's just such a difficult place to do any business and keep it going, people always keep looking for something new to turn it around. That created the initial local enthusiasm for the railroad, now it's the trail, but it's symptomatic of the situation.


Lake Placid is too big to care about the plight of the railroad. They feel they don't need train loads of people coming into town because they are already a word class destination without it. Saranac Lake and Tupper Lake on the other hand need a serious shot in the arm and both see the trail as the answer. Tupper has been waiting so long for the train to arrive that they have given up hope and think the trail will be their saving grace. Saranac Lake has more political pressure to support the trail, since number one citizen Lee Keet wants the railroad gone (snowmobiles will be next, but no body wants to believe that). Sadly the business in Saranac have stood up in support of the railroad because they know the good it brings, but the mayor turned a blind eye.

Quote:
Of course, it remains to be seen what the 'usual suspects' who have supported the trail idea will do to support ... or try to torpedo ... a "diversity initiative" that might bring large numbers of ... you know, urban people ... to walk up and down behind their properties. Perhaps I'm being less than kind to them, based on what I've seen them already do and say. It's almost worth pushing the diversity initiative high and far just to watch the fun and then keep public attention focused on their behavior..


It has been mentioned before, but is being ignored buy the people pushing the agenda, that all of the residents along the south shore of Lake Clear that adjoin the corridor have clauses in their deeds that state when the railroad is no longer a railroad and the tracks are removed that the property reverts back to them. The state claims they gained title to the corridor through eminent domain when they purchased the property from Penn Central and that extinguishes all of those clauses, but no one can seem to find proof of this process and all evidence seems to point to the state purchasing a 118 mile railroad. They also think that they have solidified this stance by changing the definition of "travel corridor" to include recreational trails. I have a hunch though that the fine folks of Lake Clear are just biding their time waiting for the rails to come up before starting their own battle.

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Matt Giardino
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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:08 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2473
Location: Northern Illinois
J3a-614 wrote:
Dennis, there are beavers there. You should know as well as anybody here that roadbed maintenance is the same whether the roadbed supports a railroad, a trail, or a road.



But it's not. With the railroad track in place it severely limits heavy equipment access, unless there is access from off the ROW, which I assume there is not, since they are patching together track to get equipment down to the site of the washout. If there was no track, they'd only have to drive a bucket loader down the trail to fix the problem. Likewise, since the trail is more forgiving of vertical curves, rather than haul in fill, they could just scrape the top of the embankment for the needed fill.

In addition, problem areas could be opened up and spanned with those lightweight pony truss trail bridges, provided the bridges don't need an E-72 Cooper's rating.

Now, it appears this gentleman has a definite vested interest in seeing the track go away, but as far as the cost to maintain the embankment with trail only vs. trail and rail, his statement is not incorrect.

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Dennis Storzek


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:04 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:55 pm
Posts: 733
Location: Warren, PA
The reversionary issue is possible, but much of that battle has just been fought in Indiana; ie. a railroad abandoned through the process, picked up by a state agency, operated, and then wanted to convert to a trail, but never was really a re-certified 'common carrier' post abandonment, and now wants protection of right-of-way reversion under the rails to trails act.

The way I read it... depending on the intent... the STB sided that the property was eligible as the state intent was not to consummate the abandonment.... and the line was 'intact'.
https://www.stb.gov/Decisions/readingro ... enDocument

But, that opened up a new front as now that's it was decided that it was eligible for trail conversion and WAS still under the jurisdiction of the STB, it was also eligible for new OFA offers and shipper need requests, so that battle immediately restarted and has yet to be resolved.

It's been two years and counting on Indiana, if they want to go to New York, well, there's the playbook. You really have to follow their own arguments to comprehend it. The major difference I can see is that Indiana started with an abandonment in 1991; the PC abandonment of the Lake Placid Branch was 1974. National Rail to Trails act was 1983, so the definition of 'consummation of abandonment' can get pretty sticky depending on WHEN and what the process was at the time. After the trails act, the entire process was really clarified, before then it can be pretty confusing, particularly if a line was purchase and put back into service after it was abandoned.

I never realized that they'd actually started dismantling the line prior to state purchase:
https://www.nytimes.com/1974/05/05/arch ... rable.html


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:23 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:37 pm
Posts: 55
Randy, I always appreciate your insight and information. It often clears things up without any emotion.

exprail


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