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 Post subject: Re: Texas restoration controversy
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 9:34 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 435
Mtn3781 wrote:
I was wondering when they were going to move it back from NC. Would have liked to have seen them bring ii in and unload it. Found this press release. Apparently it happened May 3rd. I called them today. It's sitting under a tarp until the enclosure is finished. So the general public can't see it.
I drove by on the 5th -- the tarped locomotive was clearly visible from the street


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 Post subject: Re: Texas restoration controversy
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 3:59 pm 

Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:30 pm
Posts: 16
Would have been nice if somebody in NC had given us a heads up, hey, they loaded it on the truck, headed your way.

Going to be right out front. Kind of hard to miss it. What I find interesting in researching it, Atlanta was founded as a railroad town by the W&A in 1836 and yet it's tracks didn't make it to Atlanta until 1851, 15 years later. It pretty much started out as a stake in the ground and that is all it was for a few years. It appears a few buildings started showing up in 1839. GA RR made it to "east" Atlanta in 1842. The Macon & Western made it to the actual terminus in 1846 which had gone through multiple name changes by then.

It appears most of the railroads in the SE were 5 ft gauge, as was the W&A, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... ted_States Thus the Texas was designed and built as 5 ft gauge which it of course no longer is.

From their website, it looks like they do behind the scenes tours on Fridays. And they are part of the Bank of America free museums first weekend of the month program. I'm interested in seeing what an obviously successful museum looks like, and what ideas and tips I might get from them.


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 Post subject: Re: Texas restoration controversy
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 5:00 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:52 pm
Posts: 888
Hi,

There was a railroad construction camp that was placed in the middle of no where as the base camp for the construction of the W&A. The boom town later got the name Terminus then Marysville and finally Atlanta. It is a true boom town - it just became permanent and was always based on transportation. First railroads, then cars and trucks, and now air passenger service.

The "famous" Mile Post 0 is actually on the Georgia Railroad as I understand it. The Georgia Railroad continues less than a half mile west of MP 0 where it joins the N-S main freight trunk through Atlanta.

The General and Texas probably passed through Union Station (GA RR/A&WP joint station) over the years.

I recall when the Georgia Railroad/Family Lines went to change the general freight classification yard to become a TOFC/COFC yard. Rumor has it that they started digging out ballast and hit covered over track. There were a few layers of track and the lowest level was supposedly not standard gauge. I assume it was 5' gauge. I was busy that quarter making the Dean's list and only remember the claim as a secondary rumor for the local railroad museum (c1976).

FWIW

Doug vV


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 Post subject: Re: Texas restoration controversy
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:07 am 

Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:30 pm
Posts: 16
I think you mean Marthasville.

Well now I'm throughly confused. Wiki claims as of 1845 there still were no trains in Atlanta even though they built a depot in 1842. And it was the Macon & Western that first got to Terminus in 1846. Supposedly the Western & Atlantic which was owned by the state of GA didn't make it until 1851. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Atlanta

But a site called Rail GA claims that the first train ran from Marthasville to Marietta on Dec 23, 1842. These versions of events aren't even close. One of them has to be wrong. http://railga.com/watl.html

I wonder if this book, "An American State-owned Railroad: The Western and Atlantic." written in 1906 has the real story. http://books.google.com/books/about/An_ ... 8rAAAAYAAJ

You've got to like this picture. Assuming the Texas is as small as No. 1, it's pretty small.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Texas restoration controversy
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 5:23 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:52 pm
Posts: 888
Hi,

Quote:
I think you mean Marthasville.


You are correct. Marysville is upstream from Harrisburg PA and a long time family friend just died. - Sorry about that.


Quote:
Well now I'm throughly confused. Wiki claims as of 1845 there still were no trains in Atlanta even though they built a depot in 1842. And it was the Macon & Western that first got to Terminus in 1846. Supposedly the
Western & Atlantic which was owned by the state of GA didn't make it until 1851.[/quote]

I researched the Roswell Railroad for a more complete book on it than was published in the 1990s. I had a lot from a railroad historians and modeler's point of view but did not think the book would interest others. The basic idea was that the Atlanta & Roswell Railroad (first name) would build to Atlanta.

====================


The Roswell Railroad 1881-1921




By

Douglas van Veelen




© 2010 Douglas van Veelen. All Rights Reserved.

No part of this book may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted by any means without the written permission of the author.

======================================

In the 1840s, northern Georgia had only two railroads under construction north of a line from Augusta, GA through Atlanta to the Georgia-Alabama state line. One was the State Railroad (technically, Western and Atlantic Railroad of the State of Georgia) being built between Marietta and Ross' Landing (later to be Chattanooga). The southern terminal of the Western and Atlantic (as the State Railroad later became recognized) that had yet to be selected (in 1840) but later became Atlanta. The Georgia Railroad and Banking Company was also building between Augusta and Atlanta in this time frame. Both of these railroads were built to southern standard gauge of 60 inches. As a footnote, all mainlines of the southern states railroads were converted to northern standard gauge (56.5 inches) in 1886.

=======================================

By 1853, the Roswell Manufacturing Company had two cotton mills in operation and employed about 300 people. It had grown to be the largest cotton factory complex in North Georgia. At the time, only the Western and Atlantic (Atlanta to Chattanooga) and the Georgia Railroad (Atlanta to Augusta) railroads were anywhere near Roswell.

Both routes would be through the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains. The Atlanta-Roswell route (about 18 miles) tried to follow the ridge lines on the way to Atlanta. The major bridge works would have been at the Chattahoochee River, Nancy Creek and Peachtree Creek. The route between Roswell and Marietta (about 11 miles) would have required much more bridging since it crossed many drainage ways into the Chattahoochee River.

On April 30, 1854, with the proven fact that mechanical railed roads and corduroy/plank wagon roads were superior to dirt and mud trails for all weather travel, Barrington King entered into the company minutes that an agent was “authorized to enter into such engagements as may be offered for the best interest of the Roswell Manufacturing Company for a railroad or plank road either from Atlanta, or Marietta.”1 Barrington, son of Roswell King, was president of the Roswell Manufacturing Company.

The company's rail or plank road committee, discussed this idea until 1862. The Civil War added more pressure in the company to ship out its products quicker. Not only was cotton cloth needed by Confederate armies, but in 1857 a woolen mill was built downstream, from the Roswell Manufacturing Company, and the wool was needed for uniforms. On October 25, 1862, the company agreed “ ... to secure a charter from the state, and books opened for taking stock, that a portion of our capital stock be appropriated for stock in said road ... ”

======================================

With heavy support from Confederate Officials, the Atlanta and Roswell Railroad Company was formed. Due to the demands of the war and the lack of industrialization by the Confederate States, there was a scarcity of steel. What iron and steel there was was used for direct war needs and not secondary needs such as building railroads (Ghost Trains & Depots of Georgia, Les R Winn, 1995, p196).

======================================

The following was written on April 28, 1863 in the Roswell Manufacturing company minutes: “The Charter for Railroad has been obtained to Atlanta, in place of Marietta, and have advance $491,887.36. The company has purchased some negroes and commenced grading under J. R. King as agent, until the stockholders meet and appoint officers, at which time we have engaged total $1,000,000 stock.”3 The route for the railroad to Atlanta instead of Marietta was most likely due to the less difficult grading required between the south bank of the Chattahoochee River and Atlanta even though it was a longer route. Another item that probably affected the decision was that three railroads met in Atlanta (one to Macon and thence to the Georgia coast in addition to the W&A and the Georgia Railroad).

J. R. (James Roswell) King was one of the sons of Barrington King. James and his brother (Thomas) were the owners of the new (1857) woolen mill. While James supervised the construction of the railroad bed, he continued to run his mill and was commander of the Roswell Battalion. This organization was composed of male mill employees from 16 to 60 years of age.

In May, 1864, Union commander General William T. Sherman began his campaign to capture Atlanta. Union troops arrived in the Roswell area on July 5, 1864. The mills were destroyed. All the female mill workers from Roswell Manufacturing Company were relocated into the Ohio-Indiana-Illinois area. Once relocated there, these women had to start their lives over. No record of their return to Roswell or even where they were delivered came to light (other than a very general area) after the war. The Civil War was the first of the modern wars where railroads moved military supplies to the army. The army in the field did not have to survive off the land. Civilians in the military industrial complex (as Post-WWII generations later dubbed it) were as much a military target as the soldiers were.

On July 17, the Union army left Roswell to march towards Decatur. Their march route took them along parts of the grading for the Roswell Railroad. Private James P. Snell of the 16th Army Corps wrote in his diary the following account: “Decatur is 6 miles east of Atlanta, from which point the Confederates were at work, opening a railroad from Roswell, and had it graded and ready to lay track, when we-uns came down here and put a stop to their ----- undertaking, intended to benefit the Southern Confederacy and the army, by furnishing a more speedy transportation for the cloths manufactured at Roswell. The main direction of the incomplete railroad is nearly north and south, thru DeKalb County.”4

The grading by 1864 was completed from the Chattahoochee River, one mile south of Roswell, to 1/2 mile south of present day Oglethorpe University on Peachtree Road. Portions of the 23rd Army Corps camped on the grade next to Peachtree Road. Colonel John S. Casement, of the 103rd Ohio Infantry wrote on July 19th: “ ... encamped on the Atlanta and Roswell rail road.”5

==============================

Chapter 3 - Building the Railroad 1865 - 1881

What happened was that the South was destroyed by the war. Although the south was part of the Union again, it was also an occupied country. Typical of a portion of mankind, many saw a way to make a profit on the vanquished who could not defend themselves. These individuals were Carpetbaggers from the North and Scalawags from the South.

This left little or no capital to build the Atlanta & Roswell. The Roswell Manufacturing Company had to be rebuilt first so there was a reason for the railroad to be completed.

With the end of the war in April of 1865, people began to return to their homes. The Roswell Manufacturing Company started rebuilding one of its cotton factories. George H. Camp was elected the new president after the death of Barrington King in 1866. Money was in short supply and the company looked for ways to obtain some. On May 28, 1867 the following was written in the company minutes: “Roswell Manufacturing Company be and is hereby authorized and requested to signify to the President of the Roswell and Atlanta Railroad company to assent of his company as a stockholder in the A&R Railroad Company to the proposed sale of the A&R Company of the undivided half interest of said company in that lot of land in the City of Atlanta being that part of city lot number twenty (20) contained on the north westside of the direct prolongation of the line dividing city limits number eighteen and nineteen (18 & 19). Southwestwardly to the right of way of the Western & Atlantic Rail Road.”6

===================================

The above excerpts from my book (to keep it small for this reply), show the W&A started north from Marietta. Sources should still be on my computer as to where the quotes came from. I would be glad to provide them. This comes from the first 11 pages of my book. The incomplete manuscript is 52-odd pages long and I have part of the 1917 valuation survey of the Roswell Branch from Southern (NS).

I found the floor plan for the long gone Dunwoody Depot - that there were two NG locos used on the branch - plans for N804 I have in hand from the Texas Collection I can no recall off hand - a single poor photo of the narrow gauge N804 pulling a narrow gauge box car - only narrow gauge photo I've found. Notice that the A&R purchased a lot in Atlanta for a depot but the line never got closer than Chamblee (originally Roswell Junction).

FWIW

Doug vV


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 Post subject: Re: Texas restoration controversy
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:59 pm 

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:27 pm
Posts: 91
Location: Vt
I was at Spencer the afternoon the Texas was pulled out of the shop after restoration and was amazed at how frail and spindly it is compared to the modern 611 being serviced a hundred feet away. The Texas moved slowly, towed by a GE 25 tonner, with the air compressed by the pistons hissing loudly as it moved onto the turntable for the next to the last time ever.
Like going into the wayback machine to watch and listen to the 165 year old machine move. Won't quite be the same behind a glass enclosure, but whether #12 or #49 it still exist and that's what is important.

Alan


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 Post subject: Re: Texas restoration controversy
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:15 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
Posts: 716
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Reading 900 wrote:
I was at Spencer the afternoon the Texas was pulled out of the shop after restoration and was amazed at how frail and spindly it is compared to the modern 611 being serviced a hundred feet away. The Texas moved slowly, towed by a GE 25 tonner, with the air compressed by the pistons hissing loudly as it moved onto the turntable for the next to the last time ever.
Like going into the wayback machine to watch and listen to the 165 year old machine move. Won't quite be the same behind a glass enclosure, but whether #12 or #49 it still exist and that's what is important.

Alan


49, 12 or 212. Pretty much all of the rolling stock acquired by the 1890 lease was renumbered into the 200 series. The only pieces that were not renumbered were the freight cars-they were all condemned and destroyed.

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"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."- Conductor Nimrod Bell, 1896


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 Post subject: Re: Texas restoration controversy
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 3:44 am 

Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:30 pm
Posts: 16
Was looking at railga.com and noticed at the bottom of a pgae, © Steve Storey. He's the librarian at SERM. Had a chance to talk to him this weekend. He says don't believe wikipedia.

Found this article on the building of the W&A http://www.aboutnorthgeorgia.com/ang/Bu ... c_Railroad, and it seems to be the most accurate I've seen so far. It actually even makes sense.

It started as an idea to connect the Chattahoochee and Tennessee rivers by canals, but the invention of the railroad came along before they got started on it. Work began on laying out the route in 1937 from the Duluth/Norcross area to Allatoona, but the grade was considered too steep so they switched to Montgomery Ferry to Marietta. Actual grading of the road bed started in 1838 and sometime in the next 3 yrs track started showing up. Also during that time they completely stopped working on it, and former Governor Lumpkin got put in charge. By the end of 1842 they had enough track completed that they hauled in a locomotive and possibly on Dec 25th ran their first train from Marthasville to Marietta.

Work continued on going north. At some point they started building south from Chattanooga. The last section to be finished was Tunnel Hill in 1850.

The story behind railga.com is some what interesting. Steve was an urban planner for the state of GA and was involved in the Silver Comet Trail project. He then started researching abandoned railroads in GA and it was easier for him to record the data in html instead of a database. Since the data was already in html it was easy enough to do a website so everybody could access it. Then one day he came by the museum to use the library, took one look at the mess, said you guys could use some help and has been here ever since.


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 Post subject: Re: Texas restoration controversy
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 10:16 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 2901
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Reading 900 wrote:
I was at Spencer the afternoon the Texas was pulled out of the shop after restoration and was amazed at how frail and spindly it is compared to the modern 611 being serviced a hundred feet away. The Texas moved slowly, towed by a GE 25 tonner, with the air compressed by the pistons hissing loudly as it moved onto the turntable for the next to the last time ever.
Like going into the wayback machine to watch and listen to the 165 year old machine move. Won't quite be the same behind a glass enclosure, but whether #12 or #49 it still exist and that's what is important.

Alan


I had the same impression of all the 19th century equipment in the B&O Museum in Baltimore--and this was before the roof collapse. It amazed me how small, say No. 25 was, or even the later Clinchfield No. 1. You wonder how those tiny engines pulled anything at all.

And you can't help but be amazed that locomotives no bigger, with no air, and cars coupled with links and pins, were what conquered the prairies, the Rockies and the Sierras in 1869.

It makes you wonder what we had for men back then.


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 Post subject: Re: Texas restoration controversy
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 10:31 am 

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Location: Maine
It makes you wonder what we had for men back then.

Mostly German, Chinese, Irish, and Italian laborers, missing fingers on each hand, and with shoulders like hams. Labor was cheap, determination was strong. Pretty incredible story.

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"It's only impossible until it's done." -Nelson Mandela


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 Post subject: Re: Texas restoration controversy
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 10:55 am 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
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So, what has been decided as to the color scheme of the restored "Texas," or is this decision still pending?


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 Post subject: Re: Texas restoration controversy
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 2:19 pm 

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:27 pm
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Location: Vt
As I understand it the restoration is finished, the color mostly black. When I was at Spencer they were working on the whistle so the Texas could have folks hear her voice once again. (Even though mounted on the engine it was to be blown using shop air) Never did hear it, had to leave before they got the job done.

Alan

Link and pin couplers, no air brakes, men with clubs to apply the brakes on top of boxcars down steep grades.
Steam brakes on the engine. No cowards there, just brave men.


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 Post subject: Re: Texas restoration controversy
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 2:59 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
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It sounds like black was the historically correct color for the period they had in mind. I am not sure what the controversy was about. Was it because of a conflicting view that the locomotive should be restored to its as-built colors? If so, what was that color scheme?

Or was there a conflicting view that the engine should be restored to the bright colors of its 1931 scheme? Was that scheme historically accurate in replicating an earlier historic scheme? I don't find any reference to a motive for the black scheme being to de-glorify the Civil War as was suggested earlier here.


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 Post subject: Re: Texas restoration controversy
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 3:59 pm 

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A local (free) newspaper's coverage of its return to Atlanta on May 4, 2017:
Reporter Newspapers - Historic locomotive arrives at Atlanta History Center


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 Post subject: Re: Texas restoration controversy
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 5:51 pm 

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Note that the article makes no mention of why it is a historic locomotive other than the fact that it dated from the Civil War period.


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