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 Post subject: Re: Pullman troop sleeper color test
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:54 pm 

Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:07 am
Posts: 104
I got it.

The name Ditzler turn the light on...dimly... after Sherwin Williams came back with the same formula as Lowes and Menards and PPG paint store said we don't do that kind of paint, I went to an auto paint store where they mixed me up a sample.

42791 is the correct match for the green
81649 looks to be the gold lettering

Thanks everyone.


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 Post subject: Re: Pullman troop sleeper color test
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:12 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2091
Location: Northern Illinois
Does that 42791 color have a name? It sounds vaguely familiar. Back forty years ago when I was painting at IRM, we were using a Ditzler color named Great Northern Railway Pullman Green. It was the early seventies, and lead laws had forced a lot of colors with sales volume too low to be worth reformulating to become obsolete... but this was available and was a nice color. In addition, Nick worked out a deal with Rustoleum Corp. for several hundred gallons of free paint, our choice of colors, so I prepared a sample plate of the Ditzler color. IIRC, of the three Lackawanna "Boonton" cars at IRM, one was painted with Ditzler, and two with the Rustoleum match. As expected, the Rustoleum lost its gloss long before the Ditzler, and eventually turned somewhat darker, but held up well, for what it was.

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 Post subject: Re: Pullman troop sleeper color test
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:56 pm 
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Location: Orrville, OH
Dennis,
Your question prompted me to do a little digging. 42791 has no name other than it's in the green family. No chips available. Special order color only. One might assume PPG could have called it Pullman green. Don't know for sure.

81649 has no name either. Comes up in the yellow family. Special order, no chips. So that could be the lettering color as stated by hytwr1. I'll update my list noted that it could be for lettering.

Hytwr1,
Curiosity killed the cat.... Post a photo of the color when you can.

Thanks,

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 Post subject: Re: Pullman troop sleeper color test
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:34 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2091
Location: Northern Illinois
Did a bit of digging and found a page that will cross difference Dulux codes to Ditzler.

This page lists codes taken mostly from EMD styling diagrams:

http://www.hosam.com/paint/dup.html

It lists the GN Pullman Green color as Dulux 83-4558.

This page:

http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorcodedi ... ton=Search

Crosses that Dulux number to Ditzler 42791, but gives a date of 1990. Looks like someone had a Dulux sample matched twenty years after I was paining.

There was another common number for a Pullman green that I can't find offhand. It would be interesting to see if there was Ditzler a match to that.

Warning - RANT

With the advent of in-store color matching, anyone can have a color "matched", and can call it anything they want. The problem is a lot of paint lines use white or light tone bases, because they mostly sell pastel architectural colors. I played with the matching at our local Loews; took a sample of chrome yellow and paid for their "mini match" deal where they make you a pint of custom paint to try. The result looked like a dirty Manila file folder. When I questioned it, the pimply faced clerk said, "It's a match. The machine says it matches." Beware.

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 Post subject: Re: Pullman troop sleeper color test
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:24 pm 
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Be careful with the hosam list as there are some discrepancies. I've incorporated some of that list into my own where I can find some other references that agree. The previously mentioned yellow either possibly slipped past or more likely it was a typo/copy/paste goof. Even I don't completely trust my own list 100%.

Paintref.com may have cross references on a railroad color code if any of those colors were used on trucks or cars. Some of those colors did cross over into the commercial vehicle lines. Like a lot of the chrome yellows or Swift Red. I have some of those color charts from the DuPont historical color site.

RANT EXTENDED.... I've never seen a color matching system in a big box store that is even close to dead on. Sometimes you can get within three shades with a pristine matte latex wall paint sample if you're lucky that day. And the calibration varies from machine to machine. I certainly wouldn't use them for anything but latex house paint if you're not too fussy. The labs at the automotive/industrial coatings manufacturers have much better equipment, procedures and qualified people to get a decent match if all you have is a drift card, code or chip. Even then, sometimes sort-of-close is all you're gonna get as too many variables are different nowadays.

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 Post subject: Re: Pullman troop sleeper color test
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:45 pm 

Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:07 am
Posts: 104
Dennis,

Here's the label info off the samples.

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Pullman troop sleeper color test
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:28 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:22 pm
Posts: 173
Termite7 wrote:
I think it looks VERY light to me. It looks more like something the Army would have used to paint trucks then Pullman.


I don't recall the source off hand, but I recall reading once that 'Pullman Green' was the exact same as 'Olive Drab' as used during WWII.

CD


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 Post subject: Re: Pullman troop sleeper color test
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:32 am 

Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:07 am
Posts: 104
A little darker.

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Pullman troop sleeper color test
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:45 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:21 pm
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Location: Danbury, CT
The second attempt looks pretty good to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Pullman troop sleeper color test
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:53 am 
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Mount Royal wrote:
The second attempt looks pretty good to me.

I'd agree. The first version looked more like a weathered color. This looks much closer to what fresh Pullman green should look like. Sure would be nice if there was a drift card to compare it to.

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 Post subject: Re: Pullman troop sleeper color test
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:11 pm 

Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 pm
Posts: 61
Location: Monticello, IL
jayrod wrote:
Mount Royal wrote:
The second attempt looks pretty good to me.

I'd agree. The first version looked more like a weathered color. This looks much closer to what fresh Pullman green should look like. Sure would be nice if there was a drift card to compare it to.



Ah, but there is a drift card! (But there there were also a number of "Pullman Green" colors too... Southern RY's later "Pullman Green" was decidedly darker than Pullman's green.)

See attached excel file of the actual color drift cards from Pullman at the Lincoln Library in Springfield, IL. They are part of the Arthur Dubin Collection. The library is not (yet) willing to allow them to be scanned. They are pretty picky, or at least were, about what you could bring into that part of the library, and generally only allowed a pencil and a pad of paper for taking notes. They have allowed us to bring in one of our drift cards to compare with what they have, but I think that may be on a case-by-case basis. Near the top of the list in the attached file is Pullman #70-10 Pullman Green - Standard. I spent an afternoon in there transcribing what was on the backs of the drift cards, and also reviewing some of the other items in the Dubin collection. Here is a link to the collection:

http://alplm-cdi.com/chroniclingillinois/items/show/186

Hopefully this will be of some help.

Kent


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 Post subject: Re: Pullman troop sleeper color test
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:31 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:59 pm
Posts: 523
I wonder if the library would allow someone to bring a Munsell Book of Color in to compare to the drift cards. Getting a Munsell number for each card in their collection would make them available to anyone.


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 Post subject: Re: Pullman troop sleeper color test
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:51 am 

Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:29 am
Posts: 45
Location: Michigan
The second paint test does look better. Looks good!

This thread is particularly interesting to me because it’s discussing a piece of railroad equipment
constructed for use by the military. I don’t know if the rail car in the conversation is of WWII era,
or Korea. (It may help to fill in that blank for those reading the topic.)
One would guess the “green” color from both conflicts would be the same.

Would not a piece of equipment constructed for use by the military have to adhere to a military specification
and not the whim of the manufacturer?

[CREEPING DEATH] replied to this thread back on September, 28th:
“I don't recall the source off hand, but I recall reading once that 'Pullman Green' was the exact same as 'Olive Drab' as used during WWII.”

I would agree with CD’s comment above.

The attached photos were taken in 1953 near the end of the Korean War. A couple of the vehicles
positioned between the faded trucks with trailers appear to have a very similar color to the second painting test of the rail car.
(Granted, a color slide taken 64 years ago is open to discrepancies.)

Military paint specifications must exist somewhere and those too, could be a potential source for what color
the car may have actually been painted when it was first delivered to the customer.

John


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 Post subject: Re: Pullman troop sleeper color test
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:40 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2091
Location: Northern Illinois
Atkinson_Railroad wrote:
The second paint test does look better. Looks good!

Would not a piece of equipment constructed for use by the military have to adhere to a military specification
and not the whim of the manufacturer?

John


Hardly the whim of the manufacturer. These cars are WWII era, and were built for the Pullman Co. I'm sure Pullman would really rather have had real passenger cars, but because of the national emergency, the War Production Board would not authorize the use of that much material, so a modified freightcar design was used. The cars were operated by Pullman, not the military, and Pullman attempted to maintain their usual standards of service. However, because the comfort level was not in keeping with their regular fleet, Pullman never used these cars in their civilian trains.

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 Post subject: Re: Pullman troop sleeper color test
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:52 pm 
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Munsell books don't generally go into the deep/dark colors unless you have ordered extra pages....

Randy

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