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 Post subject: CN 7456 Need Help replacing Ties and Ballast
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:15 pm 

Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 8:27 pm
Posts: 20
Railyard Productions has been asked to coordinate some Work Sessions on CN 7456 in Sidney Michigan. The locomotive is settling into the ground and needs some roadbed work done to fix that problem. Is Anyone interested in helping out with this? If so please respond here.
Thank you,
Rob Teed
Railyard Productions.


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 Post subject: Re: CN 7456 Need Help replacing Ties and Ballast
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:29 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5681
robteed wrote:
Railyard Productions has been asked to coordinate some Work Sessions on CN 7456 in Sidney Michigan. The locomotive is settling into the ground and needs some roadbed work done to fix that problem. Is Anyone interested in helping out with this? If so please respond here.
Thank you,
Rob Teed
Railyard Productions.


For the record, Canadian National 7456 is an 0-6-0. In addition to the locomotive and tender, there is also a caboose on that display track.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: CN 7456 Need Help replacing Ties and Ballast
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:08 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 607
Location: New Franklin, OH
It may help in getting some responses if you're more specific with your request i.e. guidance, labor, materials, tools, donations, etc.

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Orrville Railroad Heritage Society
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 Post subject: Re: CN 7456 Need Help replacing Ties and Ballast
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:27 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 2:22 pm
Posts: 78
Location: Saint Clair, MI
Hey Rob, can you show some pictures of what you're needing? By the looks of it, there are 3 units, is there an extra track (to move the cars off- even if only one at a time)? From aerials, it seems if there's just enough track for the equipment itself.

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 Post subject: Re: CN 7456 Need Help replacing Ties and Ballast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:32 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5681
It looks like the most logical thing to do would be to tie some track to the track in front of the engine or behind the caboose, grease all moving parts and then move the 0-6-0, its tender and the caboose either forward or backwards on to the new track section. Then rebuild the track and after finishing, move the engine and caboose back to the original locations. An alternative would be to move the 7456 and its tender forward, rebuild that portion of the track, move the caboose forward onto it when finished, and rebuild the section where the caboose originally sat. When finished with that section, move everything back where it was originally. I think this alternative would involve a little less new track construction.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: CN 7456 Need Help replacing Ties and Ballast
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:16 pm 

Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 8:27 pm
Posts: 20
I am seeking guidance, labor, materials, tools, donations, etc. The current plan is to extend the track in front of the locomotive and then pull the locomotive & Tender forward. Then replace the Ballast and Ties, and push the locomotive back to its original position. We are not planning on moving the rolling stock.
Thank You to all have responded, this is a really big project and we appreciate any help we can get.
Thank You,
Rob Teed
Railyard Productions
You can find us Here https://www.facebook.com/RailyardProductions/


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 Post subject: Re: CN 7456 Need Help replacing Ties and Ballast
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:19 am 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 607
Location: New Franklin, OH
Here's a quick list of what you'll need to do a decent job that will last a while:
New ties, get suitable rejects if possible (physical defects, they're cheaper) sometimes known as "industrial grade" or get composite ties. I'd steer clear of relays.
Rail, joint bars, track bolts same size as you have.
Tie plates to fit the rail, used OK.
ASTM #4 stone.
Spikes.
Front loader or loader/backhoe better. Backhoe with a trenching bucket can pull and replace ties.
Two tie tongs.
Rail tongs/clamps.
Two track jacks.
Minimum 10' chain with chain hooks.
Level on at least a 5' straight 2x4 or angle iron for cross level.
Rail gauge is real handy.
Claw bar to pull spikes and lift ties.
Spike maul or at least a 5# engineers maul to start spikes if you have a pneumatic spiker.
Pneumatic spiker, borrow if possible.
Pneumatic tamper, borrow if possible.
Compressor and hose big enough to run the above.
Lots of Gatorade, band aids for blisters and aspirin.
Don't forget suitable safety gear - hard hat, safety glasses, gloves and steel toe boots.
Have fun.

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Orrville Railroad Heritage Society
Car Knocker, Gandy Dancer & Hog Jockey
http://www.orrvillerailroad.com


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 Post subject: Re: CN 7456 Need Help replacing Ties and Ballast
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:43 am 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 607
Location: New Franklin, OH
Almost forgot, you'll need enough temporary track to pull the equipment far enough ahead to be able to raise the repaired track to the level desired. You can use relay ties for the temporary track.

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Orrville Railroad Heritage Society
Car Knocker, Gandy Dancer & Hog Jockey
http://www.orrvillerailroad.com


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 Post subject: Re: CN 7456 Need Help replacing Ties and Ballast
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:42 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2490
Location: Northern Illinois
jayrod wrote:
Almost forgot, you'll need enough temporary track to pull the equipment far enough ahead to be able to raise the repaired track to the level desired. You can use relay ties for the temporary track.


I was goint to disagree with your post above; this is an easier place to start. The initial statement is the locomotive is sinking. Unless the ties have rotted to the "three piece tie" stage, with the rail sinking through the ties, just replacing them is not the correct solution. Ties need 8 to 12 inches of rock under them to properly distribute the load to the ground below. Unless the finished job can stand to have the track 12" higher than it is now, the rails have to come out. It is also a lot easier to prepare the base with the rails out of the way. Yes, you certainly can build the track on the ground, bury it in stone, then jack the track through the stone, but it makes for a lot of tamping work.

I would move the equipment off the end of track onto temporary track, then remove the display track entirely. Excavate a trench 10' wide and one foot deep and fill with stone. Doesn't have to be ballast, but with a particle size at least that large. Then lay the new industrial grade ties, spike the rail, and lightly ballast so there is enough to tamp under the ties during final surfacing. The tie cribs don't need to be full, that does nothing to support the weight, but it may look better.

To remove the track means you need rail joints in the right place; not a problem if the temporary track starts off the end of the display track, but might be if you try to split the display in the middle. Then you may need to cut rail. A power hacksaw or big cut-off wheel will do the job. So will a torch... torch-cut rail is a no-no in active track, but on a display it won't make any difference. You will then need joint bars, and can torch the bolt holes in the rail web. If no matching joint bars are available, they can be torch cut from 1/2" or 5/8" plate.

See why it would be easier to just pull the whole string off the display track?

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 Post subject: Re: CN 7456 Need Help replacing Ties and Ballast
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:35 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 607
Location: New Franklin, OH
I agree that it is probably best to start fresh as you stated and replace everything but the rails and misc. track materials with a new compacted base. Sorry, I didn't mean to infer jacking, ties & tamping only. That's more tedious work than necessary. I provided a list of materials and tools assuming using a volunteer crew. #4 stone is used as yard ballast among other things and should be readily available locally. Use it for the base and ballast. You'll still need jacks and tamping for final leveling unless you check the base with a transit. Since I don't know the condition of the track as it exists or the ground it is sitting on, I didn't offer a procedure. But, yeah, you definitely need a decent sub base or you'll be in the same pickle eventually. And drainage is a key to longevity. Dry roadbed is happy roadbed.

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Orrville Railroad Heritage Society
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http://www.orrvillerailroad.com


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 Post subject: Re: CN 7456 Need Help replacing Ties and Ballast
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:07 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:43 am
Posts: 619
Other planning:

When you move the loco, how long can it stay there? With all volunteers and maybe little power equipment, it might have to stay there for a few weeks or even a couple months. Also you might run into delays.

You need a way to move the engine. Lube up everything you can. A pickup truck might be able to pull it if you are lucky. Might take a winch truck like a wrecker. Might need something more substantial, a trackhoe or even bulldozer. No matter how much it fights you to get moving, have a solid plan in place to STOP it. Once broke loose it may roll surprisingly freely, and I've seen rail equipment roll right over a 2x4.

You need to find out how it's currently held in place. Did someone weld the wheel to the track? Welded in stop blocks on the track? welded in a gusset? You might need a grinder or even a cutting torch to get it loose. Always consider that once the 'stop' is removed, it COULD immediately roll.


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 Post subject: Re: CN 7456 Need Help replacing Ties and Ballast
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:44 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:26 pm
Posts: 440
Location: Pure Michigan
For those unfamiliar with the display, this is how the locomotive looks like.
It is located at Montcalm Community College in Sidney, Michigan.
It was unfortunately an extremely bright day when I took these photos.

Image
Image


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 Post subject: Re: CN 7456 Need Help replacing Ties and Ballast
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:12 am 

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:03 pm
Posts: 951
Location: Warszawa, Polska
Also, in preparation for moving the locomotive, have a couple guys crawl under and pull out the grease cellars under the driving boxes and inspect the journals. You'll probably find bands of rust right along the edges of the brass (at about 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock, and likely at 6 o'clock.

Likewise, drop the rods and clean and polish all the crank pins and rod bushings.

And check the tender truck bearings as well. You can jack up the journal boxes with bottle jacks and access the brasses.

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 Post subject: Re: CN 7456 Need Help replacing Ties and Ballast
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:31 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:03 pm
Posts: 16
It seems to me that there is going to be a continuing problem here. The slope of the land appears to be "away from the depot". There are no gutters on the depot. That means that every bit of run-off water has to go under the loco before it drains to lower ground.

A serious long-term solution would need to find a way to divert the roof run-off away from the track!

Regards,
Bob Milhaupt

- In the imortal words of a railroad civil engineer: "Drainage, Drainage, Drainage!"


Last edited by Bob Milhaupt steamy on Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: CN 7456 Need Help replacing Ties and Ballast
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:13 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5681
Bob Milhaupt steamy wrote:
It seems to me that there is going to be a continuing problem here. The slope of the land appears to be "away from the depot". There are no gutters on the depot. That means that every bit of run-off water has to go under the loco before it drains to lower ground.

A serious long-term solution would need to find a way to divert the roof run-off away from the track!

Regards,
Bob Milhaupt


Bob -

Good point. And one I hadn't thought about. Here's another solution. The locomotive has to be moved anyway, so why not give consideration to moving it (and the caboose) back from in front of the depot to a spot where the depot walls begin? This would open up the side of the depot too. Yes, it would involve a bit more work in the fact that the caboose would have to be moved too. But leave the track in front of the depot in place since it would not have to be reconstructed.

BTW, the depot itself is a former C&O structure from McBrides, Michigan. Not sure if this is a passenger depot, freight depot or combination. There doesn't seem to be an operators bay, so maybe a freight station.

There seems to be enough room so moving the 7456 and caboose back, would solve the problem of the rain coming off of the roof and future track water problems.

Les


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