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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:25 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2548
Location: Northern Illinois
Richard Glueck wrote:
There was significant work done to the 643, but iirc, she was stored indoors in operable condition at her retirement. Same was true for the others. Which bring to mind the question, why would a railroad like B&LE, UP, AT&SF, store representative locomotives indoors as a protected heritage collection, then disown them, remove their shelters, and shove them aside thirty years after steam? Obviously, that isn't what was intended.


I can't cite the particulars of each case, but the answer is pretty obvious; the engines were set aside by individuals in management before there was any preservation policy at all, in hopes that the executive suite would eventually form one. Years passed, people retired, and it became harder to justify the continuing expense of storage, much less the development of any sort of museum. In the case of the roads listed above, UP developed their collection into a PR tool; Santa Fe donated theirs to CSRM, and little B&LE divested itself of theirs. Remember, there was a Consolidation that kept the 643 company; it went to IRM and ended up in the Henry Ford Museum.

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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:59 am 

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 8:35 pm
Posts: 260
And a Union RR 0-10-2 was also stored with it.

Kevin Kohls


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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:09 am 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1461
Here is what I am wondering. Consider an engine like 643 that is completely worn out. Say you buy it for scrap value and want to run it. Aside from the cost of boiler work, what would be the estimated cost of rebuilding all the mechanical parts to like new condition?

I am referring to all the mechanical parts such as wheels, axles, bearings, frame details, brake rigging, equalizer components, springs, trucks, rods, valve gear, pistons, valves, cylinders, controls, accessories, etc.

I have no idea of the cost, but from what others have said form time to time, I would guess that the cost would exceed a million dollars at the very least.


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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:11 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 4241
Location: Maine
A million smackers is a reasonable figure. I don't believe that is the condition of 643. Assuming the buyer has the money to move her, fuel her for extended excursions and a 1472, he/she may be getting a "bargain".
No matter how you slice it, owning a steam locomotive and managing its operation and preservation, is a near thing.

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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:30 am 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1461
Richard Glueck wrote:
A million smackers is a reasonable figure. I don't believe that is the condition of 643.


Why do you not believe that?


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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:48 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 9680
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
We can't prove a negative. Someone has to prove an allegation with evidence.

The evidence out there shows that B&LE 643 was in active use from 1944 to 1951 or 1952--seven to eight years at best. It was built by Baldwin, not some amusement-park ride builder or the like.

The evidence also shows that 643 has been moved/used a downright pathetically trivial amount since retirement from the B&LE. Contrast with locos like CB&Q 4960, Reading 2102, SP 4449, or even T&P 610.

Now, certainly the loco would need a good going-over before consideration for restoration to active/regular service, if for no other reason than the law. And, certainly, someone could have made substandard repairs or modifications, or destroyed bearings or auxillaries through negligence. But there's no reason to believe the loco was "rode hard and put away wet" and then rotted in open display for nearly thirty years like PRR 1361 quite apparently was.


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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:56 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 1924
Location: Pottstown,Pa.
Sadly a total waste of bandwidth unless Mr. Campbell has had a recent awakening and now sees the realities of the situation. I hope he has but I doubt it.

Sadly I maintain that the strong odds are that this locomotive will end up being scrapped in place. Hope I'm proven wrong.

IMHO-Ross Rowland


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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:09 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 618
co614 wrote:
Sadly I maintain that the strong odds are that this locomotive will end up being scrapped in place. Hope I'm proven wrong.

IMHO-Ross Rowland


It sounds like Glen is going to have it moved. So still probably scrapped but in a different place.


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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:31 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1461
co614 wrote:
Sadly a total waste of bandwidth unless Mr. Campbell has had a recent awakening and now sees the realities of the situation. I hope he has but I doubt it.

Sadly I maintain that the strong odds are that this locomotive will end up being scrapped in place. Hope I'm proven wrong.

IMHO-Ross Rowland



I have no idea how this will come out, but I certainly do not have an unyielding conviction that it will turn out for the worst. I can’t imagine why anyone would.


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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:15 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5826
kevin kohls wrote:
And a Union RR 0-10-2 was also stored with it.

Kevin Kohls


Kevin -

Wasn't a Bessemer & Lake Erie 2-8-0 stored with it? I think all of the Union RR 0-10-2's were sold to the DM&IR weren't they? Or did the 0-10-2 that came back for display end up being stored with B&LE # 643 for a time?

Les


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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:22 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:30 am
Posts: 224
The preserved Union 0-10-2 was a stablemate of the 643 during their first several decades of preservation. USS stored both of them in the Greenville roundhouse along with 2-8-0 #154.

That lasted until 1983 when the #154 went to the Henry Ford Museum and the #643 was sold and moved. The 0-10-2 was donated in 1985 to the Greenville Memorial Railroad Park.


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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:51 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:58 pm
Posts: 983
Ron Travis wrote:


I have no idea how this will come out, but I certainly do not have an unyielding conviction that it will turn out for the worst. I can’t imagine why anyone would.




because it has happened before...

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:37 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 1924
Location: Pottstown,Pa.
Exactly the point. Thank you David.

Sad but true.

Ross Rowland


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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:11 am 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1461
Dave Lewandoski wrote:
Ron Travis wrote:


I have no idea how this will come out, but I certainly do not have an unyielding conviction that it will turn out for the worst. I can’t imagine why anyone would.




because it has happened before...



Yes of course it has happened before, and it could happen any time. I realize this. But why would a person insist that it will happen in the case of 634?


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 Post subject: Re: 643 for sale on eBay?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:15 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 9680
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
I am in no way "insisting" that a similar fate will befall B&LE 643. For that, you'll have to take it up with stuck-record "nattering nabob of negativity" that keeps saying "Sad but true!" like a Trump Twitter wannabe.

But the parallels in the two cases are stunning to the point of deja vu:

  • A large-sized steamer (not an 0-4-0T) that has operated in post-railroad ownership;
  • The loco is still mostly operable, as near as can be determined;
  • The loco is "trapped" on property the loco owner doesn't own, and the property owner and surrounding property owners are unsympathetic to the loco/owner's plight;
  • The loco's owner is physically, logistically, and/or financially unable to deal with the situation that has transpired, and at least from outward appearances appears to be in some degree of denial or delusion about the present circumstances;
  • The loco's owner is reclusive, has shied from the public eye, and appears unwilling to publicly solicit support or sympathy (I've seen photos of Jensen, but never of the alleged Campbell);
  • As tragic as the plight may be, the law, judges, etc. are or will be on the side of the scrappers/would-be scrappers.

Literally everything in this case points to a repeat of the GTW 5629 "disaster." If there are "saviors" waiting in the wings, they are negotiating things clandestinely with the loco owner, property owners, railroads, heavy equipment operators, etc. And they SHOULD be doing this quietly, until such time as a new owner can step forth and announce plans, a place to send donations, etc.

I can also point out that Jensen earlier lost another even bigger steamer, CB&Q 4-8-4 5632, in a major dispute with a railroad over storage and ability to move the loco. In that specific case, a "Catch-22" evolved whereas he couldn't move it without an inspection and the railroad's cooperation, but said railroad refused to inspect or cooperate. That ended in a $1.7 million verdict against the RR for Jensen, which some say he never collected on--it was in appeals as he died, supposedly.

More on the stories:
https://www.steamlocomotive.com/places/jensen/


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