A buddy of mine sent me a pic he shot while riding the GCRY in August of '04.

It shows the 4960 followed by a tank car, then two (maybe three) diesel (I think EMD F) B units.

Is the tank car for extra water? Or is it for extra oil for the 4960 (if it's an oil-burner now)? I assume that engine was not originally an oil-burner.

Are the B-units actually being used for grunt? Or are they really just shells (with maybe HEP generators, or steam generators, or one of each in each? It's a summer photo, so they wouldnt be using steam, so I doubt a solely steam-generating piece would be in the consist.

My guess is they are indeed for hauling the train; either full-time, or for on the grades. Or maybe just standby for if the 4960 breaks down? In either case, that would mean some sort of diesel controls in the steamer's cab. Are those on the fireman's side, controlled by a second hogger? Or on the engineer's side also? Seems like there would be space issues on the engineer's side.

And are they connected by an MU cable running along the tank car, or are they radio-controlled?

In other words, boys, what the heck is going on? I want to report back to my friend; he's not a railfan, but he loved that train!

It would be easier to answer your question if we could see the picture.

Without seeing the photos in question I'm guessing you may be looking at F40 units.

Eric Hadder can fill in better than I as he's the CMO, but when I worked there, we'd fill those large tank cars with treated water and then they'd go to the Canyon so that they could short fill the steam locomotive up there. No water at the Canyon except perhaps for an emergency.

I don't work for the GCRY, and the guys here that do are busy with other things at the moment, but:


WATER. Water is such a scarce commodity at the GCRY that the Santa Fe used to run trainloads up from Del Rio Springs/Puro on the line to Phoenix. Even now, ALL the water at the Canyon comes from a VERY leaky and failing pipeline from the bottom, in need of an estimated $125 million in replacement.
Even now, the GCRY uses recaptured and treated rain water for the locos. The water wells in Williams go down as far as 3,500 feet, I'm told. The practice now is for the GCRY to stage a water tank car on the South Rim wye with a work train--one carload is good for three top-offs at the South Rim, I'm told. (This, of course, adds to the expense of steam.)



The trains have HEP, and the GCRY has both power cars and auxiliary generators on the F40FHs (re-geared to freight speeds). Have to double-check on the MLW FPA's and FPB's.... also, steam was used in air-conditioning in earlier days, but is not an issue now.



YES, they are needed. The GCRY routinely runs cars of 12-20 cars (way up from 4-7 plus a water car when they started in 1989), and has grades of up to 3.5% I'll leave it to others to elaborate upon, but the steamers have a basic diesel control box in the cabs, and the same engineer "blends" steam and diesel as needed to maintain speed, save fuel, etc. as needed. It's a more complicated game than the traditional steam running.

This is a video shot by GCRY CMO Eric Hadder on Saturday:

4960, F40FH 295, ex-CN/VIA power car, and 13 cars--note that only four of the cars are coaches--on the well-known "roller coaster" sag and grade just south of Pronghorn Ranch Road north of Wiliams--I think the grades here are about 3% both ways.

https://www.facebook.com/22034663131146 ... 639981500/

You think that F40FH is "just along for the ride"???

My friend’s photo can now be seen here:

https://web.500px.com/photo/1010989714/gcrr3-by-KudzuTraveler/

They sure look like F B-units to me.

Alco-design MLW FPB-4 locos, ex-VIA Rail/CN. The GCRY rosters no EMD 'covered wagon" F-units, only the F40FH's (ex-Amtrak and NJ Transit, rebuilt) and the VIA locos.

Thanks for all the info, guys. Much obliged.

Are the diesels controlled by radio, or by an MU cable that runs along the tender and the tank car?

Is the steam loco now an oil-burner?

BTW: Alexander, when I clicked on the link you posted, it took me to some sort of “People’s Court” show. ??? But I’d still like to see the GCRY video.

"Is the steam loco now an oil-burner?"

Yes. Specifically... recycled vegetable oil! Which is pretty cool.

Grand Canyon is an incredible operation. I've only been twice, both for special events. Pete Lerro's double header charter a few years ago, and when the #3751 doubleheaded with the #4960. Getting to ride behind the #3751 on that line was a true highlight of my life!

When I have some extra time and money, I would love to spend a week or so and enjoy the regular Grand Canyon train, specifically the lovely dome cars, and spend a few days at one of the lodges at the Canyon.

Thanks, CZ.

Are all the steam locos retired from general use now? Or can a regular Joe still ride behind one?

#4960, the 2-8-2 that your friend took the photo of runs about once a month on the regular canyon trips. The 2-8-0 #29 just went of service last year.

The diesels are FP-4's that still had their 92 mph gearing at the time. 4960 was rated 580 tons on 3 percent grades with the time. FP-4 were rated at 455 tons. 3% grades were between Anita and Imbleau Northbound and Bly and the Williams Yard southbound. The southbound 3% were around MP 12 to 10 and MP2.5 to 3.5. The south leg of the wye at GC was also 3% Pronghorn ranch road MP 4.5 is in a bowl that IS NOT SURROUNDED by the 3%grades.
The tank car had an MU cable thru the car. tank car capacity was 16,000 gallons and we cold get about 15,000 due to the valve placement. Initially grey water was available at the canyon but eventually the RR stationed one silver tank car at each end and two painted for train service. Water from Williams was treated and then shipped North.
None of the locomotives could make a round trip without taking water at the canyon. 4960 tender capacity is 18,000 gallons of water.. There were two oil tanks for about 3800 gallons of fuel. One tank had diesel and the other number 4 which needed to be heated to 120F. Leaving Williams full of water, you would reach the canyon with 7 to 9 thousand gallons left depending on the train, who was firing and how much blowing down was accomplished. We typically filled the tender to 13,000 to 15,000 for the return trip and arrived with about 7000. If they were going to use 4960 to switch that night it was 15,000 if it went to the house it was 13,000. Water from the tank car in the train was used to fill the tender and the car staying at the Grand Canyon. For 18 and 29 the tenders were filled full.
The 1999 season introduced the diesel control box. The engineer controlled the diesels. The steam locomotives are equipped with 26 air and the diesels had 24 so the steam engine stand could control the independent air on the diesels.
In your picture there is the 460 car which is a CN steam heat car with a 480V generator in it supplying power to the train.

4960 310 tons
FPB-4 126 tons
FPA-4 129 tons
460 75.5 tons
Harriman coach loaded 65 tons ea.
Cafe car 64 tons
first class were 54 tons ea.
domes 75 tons ea
Chief 82 tons
tank car 97 tons


I worked at GCR from June 1996 to May 2004 and I was a road qualified Fireman and Engineer. I also dispatched and I started in the shop.

Robby Peartree

Robbie, many thanks for all of that! Fascinating and informative.

Let's try this for a video link:

https://www.facebook.com/22034663131146 ... 639981500/