Please share your experiences with fake rivets applied to new-build, welded steam loco tenders. How were they made, how were they applied (welded, glued, other?), how have they held up, etc.

I have heard different anecdotal tales about this subject, and would like some information about what worked, what didn't, and what other ideas there are about this concept.

Thanks,

Howard P.

Be sure to get the correct number.

Or, when the guy with a notebook starts counting, find an excuse to move.

>;-D

Howard, you may want to use the search engine and see what you can find on this site. I recall several discussions on this subject. It may have been Kelly Anderson who was saying that Strasberg had gone to all welded stainless tender tanks because the regulations on access to confined spaces made doing interior maintenance nearly impossible. There was also discussion about welding on rivet heads, maybe spot welded or stud welded. I do not recall, but it is here somewhere.

Huh? No, that part wasn't me. We did it because it was easier.

I will answer further when I have more time.

I remember reading (or maybe I imagined this?) that there were short threaded studs 'studwelded' onto 90's tender, and that fake rivets were made on a screw machine (by the hundreds, bottom tapped), and 'spun' onto the studs. Hand drill and suction cup?

At least that is what I remember, from some years ago. A two minute search on RyPN didn't get me to what I read before, but I may have used the wrong search words.

Back in the '70s, I worked in a transformer plant that made transformers for a company called KSM that made studwelders. My next search will be for KSM or other studwelders.

When I was involved in the restoration of an interurban car, we had to cut out a side panel that was badly rusted. After welding a new one in place, carriage bolt heads were tack welded on the new sheet metal to replicate the appearance of rivets. Nothing structural was involved and they looked just fine.

The guys to ask about this are at Monticello, Illinois.
Their brand new welded tender tank for their
Baldwin consolidation engine #401 has welded rivet heads.

I seem to recall there is a special welding rig made just
for installing those decorative external rivet heads.

Anyway, it sure fooled me! It looks 100% authentic.

The only thing that's not there any more is leaking water!

Information on the rivet heads used on SOU 401's tender at the Monticello Railway Museum can be found in this thread.

They worked out very well and look correct. It is possible to dislodge them if they are hit with enough force and I believe one or two have been removed that way.

Just for fun, and to mess with the "rivet counters" Kent made a few special ones by drilling into the bottom of the rivet head and gluing in a magnet. Odd, out of place rivets, have been known to occasionally show up on the engine and tender and then mysteriously disappear again.

Not to start controversy anew, but there was something of a tempest in a teapot regarding the stainless-steel replacement tender body for K4 1361, which supposedly had faithful 'simulated' rivets. It would be interesting to know exactly what they assumed, and exactly what they did, on what was supposedly a big-budget government project...

Howard,

Simple fake rivets were formed for the Climax welded tender when we restored her back in the 80s. I believe they are still there and have lasted over 30 years.

The fabrication shop took a block of tool steel and drilled a hole through it that matched the outside diameter of the rivet head. Around one end of the hole in the block a round counter bore was machined, sized to receive a disc of sheet metal. This block was mounted in a press, a small rod with on end rounded was mounted in the head of the press. It was long enough to push the disc through the block and out the other side. Discs were punched out. When they were forced through the block/die a half round bowl, the size of a rivet head was formed.

We blasted the locations on the tender where the fake rivets would be mounted. We used a 3m structural adhesive 2 parts. The caps/fake rivets were filled with adhesive, pressed into place and held in place with masking tape. We allowed it to fully cure and removed the excess adhesive with the sand blaster.

Simple, cheap, long lasting. The only issue is if its whacked hard, then it may be knocked off. Not a major deal as you can either use a spare or blat the adhesive out of the one that is knocked off unless you loose it.

A recap:

Yes, I asked about this before, according to the search feature.

So far, we have two known methods:

CTM's Climax with hollow-formed, glued-on rivets, applied 30+ years ago. How have they held up so far?

Monticello's SOU 401, with stud-welded-on rivets. The stud welding link is now a dead link. How have 401's rivets held up?

What seems to me to be a "solid" method (SRC's version?) is to screw a solid rivet head with a female thread, onto a small stud (1/4-28, perhaps) welded to the side sheet. The heads could be turned out in a CNC machine, and applied with some Loctite.

Thanks for the responses so far, hope to hear some more.

Howard P.

Install a round head square drive screw into a threaded hole and fill in the square?

I thought, no time to search right now, that Strasburg's "Mark II" method was to forego the threaded stud and stud weld the solid rivet directly to the sheet. Hopefully Kelly will find time to tell us more.

I won't say where, but I was talking to someone that just had a tender shell built, and the builder used the latter method of just welding on the fake rivets. He said that the 'rivets' had a small projection on the back that was supposed to fuse with the shell with resistance welding, but he was not too happy with how secure they were. Some of them came off real easy.

The square drive, round head, method would work on a passenger or freight car, but tapping a bunch of holes into the side sheets and water space on a steam locomotive tender would open up a lot of possibilities for leakage. The same would hold true with carriage bolts and nuts, that is if you can get to the far side, put the nuts on, and get them tight.

Going back to the 'glued on' fake rivets, Boeing and others are using structural adhesives to assemble parts of commercial aircraft, maybe even military stuff. I doubt that the material is cheap, but the labor would most likely consist of doing a careful layout and cleaning of the surface, and then just sticking the 'rivets' on.

Well we just saw how good the decisions are at Boeing...
Glue may hold for a few years.
I'd go with the welded decorative rivet heads.