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 Post subject: A few questions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:31 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
Posts: 90
Hello. Since I do have a few questions, I will put them in one topic (thread) in order not to creat confusion.
So...
1) What air conditiong systems used the 1st trains that had air condition:
"Capitol Limited" and "George Washington": steam, ice blocks or they had generators mounted on the cars;
1a) Talking about air conditioning, does any one haves this diagram at a higher size? http://www.railswest.com/images/CAR1929.jpg
1b) Did "Pullman" sleeping cars ever had steam or ice block operated air condition?;
1c) Why after introducing air conditiong, window opening was disbanded?;

2) Why in U.S.A. and Canada the only cars that had compartments where the sleeping cars and no one adopted the compartment system that was used in Europe and Australia?;

3) Restriction that allowed only 1st class passanger to the observation car was practiced by all companies or just by some companies?

4) There where non-smoking cars in the post '20's era?

5) Does some one have the constent of the "Olympian" in the 1919-1930 period and maybe some pictures with it?

6) On this brochure: https://d3h6k4kfl8m9p0.cloudfront.net/s ... umdIMQ.jpg
A couple is wathcing a tv. Was that tv on a train?
How come the GG 1 locomotvies don't have the pantographs (why the manypulated the image?).

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:00 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
Posts: 1892
Location: Southern California
djl wrote:
1b) Did "Pullman" sleeping cars ever had steam or ice block operated air condition?
Yes, Pullman did apply both ice to some of its cars and steam injector to some of its cars. Cars assigned to the Santa Fe had steam injector AC systems.

Tom Madden's database found at his "The Pullman Project" provides information about both heavyweight and lightweight Pullman cars -- including type of AC and date installed.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:18 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
Posts: 90
I found that site, but didn't exactly took a good look.
It seems that it haves a list only for steam ejector: http://www.pullmanproject.com/SEAC.htm
By curiosity, I will look by the name of some of the cars, to see what I pictures I can find.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:32 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:05 pm
Posts: 1077
6) The TV was on the train. Note that not only the pantographs but the overhead wire has been removed. Only a small fraction of Amtrak was electric so my guess is someone at the ad agency removed the electrics to clean up the image and make it look more "normal."


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:25 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
Posts: 1148
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Not all companies restricted access to observation cars to first class passengers. Some companies like the Nashville, Chattanooga and St. Louis Railway had coach observation cars. Others operated café-observation cars. However, railroads that were subject to segregation laws did restrict observation car access to whites only.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:23 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:18 am
Posts: 132
Location: B'more MD
There is a rather notorious Amtrak "tour" pamphlet which was issued back in the late 70s, which has to be one of the all-time tributes to non-proof reading. It pictured a couple in the diner, and some other locations in the train smiling and having a good time. Problem was the young lady had a ring on her finger with a particularly off-color admonition of what one could do to one's self. Can't remember after all these years, if they had flipped the negative and thus the ring's message wasn't apparent. In any case, it made it past all of the proof readers and into nationwide circulation to stations, etc. Oc course, there was a super quick recall, when it was realized. We hurried down to the station in Charleston WV, and luckily the ticket clerks hadn't read all of their messages. We managed to grab all they had. I will have go go to the attic and see if I can find my copies. Long ago and far away

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:38 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:34 pm
Posts: 2410
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
John T wrote:
6) The TV was on the train. Note that not only the pantographs but the overhead wire has been removed. Only a small fraction of Amtrak was electric so my guess is someone at the ad agency removed the electrics to clean up the image and make it look more "normal."


Lots of Amtrak publicity images from the 1970s had overhead wire edited out.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:55 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:05 pm
Posts: 1077
Geroge, Are you saying the woman was flippimg the bird to the photographer? Your discription is so delicate I am not sure what you are talking about.


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:33 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 563
Location: Philadelphia, PA
1. I believe the first non-experimental air conditioning was ice in the late 1920's. It was the standard system then in use on refrigerator cars so the roads had the infrastructure and the expertise.

1a. I'm don't have a bigger diagram.

1b. Pullman used steam, ice, mechanical or Waukesha A/C depending on the preference of the road operating the car. I believe the early Burlington Zephyrs and Overland Route City Trains used head end power.

1c. Passesngers would open the windows, letting in hot air.

2. Even the Pullman Company insisted on open section sleeping cars when CIWL (International Sleeping Car Company) on the European Continent was using sleeping compartments.

3. As mentioned, some RR's allowed coach passengers in the observtion cars. On SAL's Silver Meteor between NY and Florida, the coach portion was on the rear of the train with the observation car, while the Pullmans were on the head end and those passengers had a Pullman midtrain lounge car.

4. If there were special cars for women and children, they would be non-smoking.

5. I don't have an Olympian consist from that era.

6. The Amtrak brochure dates from the mid-1970's when 40-41 Braodway Limited between NY/Wash and Chicago was Amtrak's first refurbished train.. The ad agency must have edited out the pans as well as the entire catenary system. The TV is interesting; I doubt if they used it for broadcast TV but early commercial videotape systems were available. Note the first two passenger cars after the baggage car are ex-NYC 16-10 Sleepercoaches.


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:45 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:25 pm
Posts: 366
Might be of interest to some, in the lower right photograph in that Amtrak Ad is a stylized Route map.

Notice that the route above the Attendant's head swings to the west and stops (at Buffalo) and then the route starts again out in Ohio (?). The NYCRR stopped all passenger service west of Buffalo in Dec of 67 when they pulled the 20th Century Limited. At the inception of Amtrak there was no NYC/Albany/Buffalo/Chicago service.

The current Amtrak NYC/Albany/Buffalo/Chicago service (The Lake Shore Limited) was started as an experimental Amtrak Route in I believe 1974. So that dates that Amtrak Ad to the very first years of Amtrak.

Cheers, Kevin.


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:16 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 563
Location: Philadelphia, PA
NYC/PC continued to operate passenger service including sleeping and dining cars beyond Buffalo after the Empire Service began.

In September, 1969 there were three trains to Chicago via Cleveland and two via Detroit. Later Canada authorised withdrawal of service between Fort Erie and Windsor, putting an end to the Detroit route. The service via Cleveland continued until Amtrak, then one train resumed later as the Lake Shore.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:38 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:25 pm
Posts: 366
Well, while I admit that I did not consult my collection of NYCRR public timetables and was relying on my memory of historic events, But the main point was there was no NYC/Albany/Buffalo/Chicago service when Amtrak began. And that is reflected in the Amtrak Route map shown in the original posters "ad". For a period of time there was no RR Passenger service from NYC across upstate NY to Chicago, which was a very significant historic RR Passenger route.

After doing a little Research it appears that the "modern" Amtrak "Lake Shore Limited" began service in October of 1975. And it "recycled" the name of the old NYCRR "Lake Shore Limited" that was discontinued in 1956.


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:37 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 563
Location: Philadelphia, PA
A note on question #3.

A long time ago, in a galaxy far away, two friends of mine were riding B&O 1, the National Limited, in the Slumbercoach. They had adjourned to the Observation Car for beverages when the Pullman Conductor noted their space was in the Slumbercoach (on Coach tickets) and they didn't belong in the Obs (B&O 1 had a Coach Lounge also). They politely pointed out the Slumbercoach was Pullman-operated, the Obs was not crowded and they were bringing the Pullman Co. revenue by purchasing beverages. The Brains thought for a second and decided they could stay.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:38 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
Posts: 90
I do like when I make people telling memories. :)

About opening windows:
1) In coaches I do understood that would ruin the cold air in the whole of the car, but why when you did pass through areas with cool and fresh areas (like "Milwaukee Road" did in the mounatins) opening windows wouldn't be bad. For just few hours air condition isn't disturbing, but when spent even 24 hours in a train. And what about the smoke caming from smokers (I'm an ex-smoker, I quit 10 years ago);
1b) What about the sleeping cars? There if you open the window, you couln't make heat in the whole car.
In my country, non-opening windows cars are becoming the norm. O.k., is not like in U.S.A., where you can't open the window at all. Coaches do have about 4 windows at you can open a small fraction, compartmented cars (couchette, sleeping, normal) can have the small opening at all the windows from the compartments. But that small opening is usually locked (at least at coach cars);

2) Why did "Pullman" insisted on open sections? At least for a biger fare, you could have some privacy.
The 1sts (or among the 1st) "Pullman" cars to have some kind of compartmnents where used by "Santa Fe" (found out some brouchures - if do you want, I will put link/picture).
For me, the compartment is the essence of the train. Double deck (bi-level) uncompartmented cars on moutain routes are o.k. (or maybe one-level on short routes), but in the rest, the compartment is one thing making the difference between a train a bus.
In my country non-compartmented cars are becoming the norm and I don't like. They say they are cheaper and they can be more easely supervised by video-cameras, but they are making the journey unpleasent... Some people like coach cars, some don't, so trains should have both. Oh, you do have semicompartmented cars, meaning that on each end are 3 compartmens and between them a coach section;

3) I will stop and ask something out of our up 'till this moment discusion: watching on this night a YouTube video some metion (I think the company was "Erie Lakawanna") that there where Black conductors. As far as I know, in U.S.A. only Whites where conductors, Blacks beeing porters and stewards. Or after W.W. 2 some companies hired Black porters?;

4) Oh, yeah, why do you need a generator when air conditon compressors need only mechanics to drive them, so why complicate with a generator and then a electric motor? But I guess they did had some mechanical regulator.
Never thought that with steam you could get air condition. But a passion can makes you find intresting thing. After all steam is hot. But heat is used on absortion refrigerators too;

5) That "Amtrack" printing thing makes me think about a funny thing that I've seen in a film that makes fun of communism in my country (Romania)
But why removing the pantographs and the wires from the pictures? Electric locomotives means speed, sleak ride and lack of somke. "Our form of transportation is better then others' "

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:18 am 

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:48 am
Posts: 34
Just to clarify, Amtrak in fact did operate a NY-Chicago service prior to the 1975 introduction of the Lake Shore Limited.

This service was added after the basic system had been defined (which had excluded the route via Cleveland). The support of the states of IN and OH had been intended to cover the cost of the extension between Buffalo and Chicago.

The state support failed to materialize and the service between Buffalo and Chicago was unceremoniously discontinued in 1972.


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