That's fair. To anyone on here who knows a bit bout steam, what kind of damage might we expect the 3512 to have suffered from landing upside down on the silt at the kind of speed she fell at? I'm curious about it. In the documentary, they mentioned the possibility of mapping out what was underneath the silt to be able to look at it better, so hopefully that becomes a reality so we can get a better idea of what's left of the engine underneath the mud.

I also wonder why the engine ended up upside down when all the other equipment is sitting upright. I thought it would make more sense for the locomotive to be upright but i guess not.

I think it's rolled since the first images were taken.

I just finished watching the documentary. The tender, the wood caboose, and the snowplow all look relatively undamaged, but the only thing that I could really identify as part of a locomotive, upside-down or otherwise, was a dome cover laying on its own in the silt. It doesn't look like it let go without a fight either. I couldn't really tell what that piece of twisted metal was that they got the ROV's umbilical cord tangled around. I was expecting to see locomotive wheels pointing skyward but there was no sign of them in the footage they showed. From the size of the impact crater they described, it sounds like she must have hit bottom pretty hard.

They do show parts of the locomotive, but they are hard to identify unless you're an expert. It's hard to tell, but they show part of it that appears to be either the rear of the locomotive towards the cab, or the pilot, i can't tell but it's definitely part of the locomotive itself. It looks like it might be a running board with some brackets and piping visible. Maybe someone here can chime in. It's possible that more of the locomotive is visible, but they did not have time to film it. It is stated in the film that just as they were starting to get more detailed shots of the "machinery" but the camera feed died out. Hopefully another expedition someday can reveal more. I'd like to know what kind of damage is present and what kind of shape the locomotive would be in if it were to be viewed in full and inspected by a crew of experts. The twisted metal may be part of the cab, boiler jacket, or running board, if i had to guess.

Interesting and well done documentary. I'd only previously seen the 1995 expedition footage that was in black and white so it was fascinating to see everything in colour.

A couple of observations;

- There appears to be virtually no deterioration on the other pieces of equipment as compared with images taken on the 1995 expedition, only more accumulated silt. Both doors into the van were open on the '95 expedition, one is now somehow closed.

- The steam dome cover is a new discovery. That it came off isn't surprising - its just a heavy gauge sheet metal cover held on by gravity.

- The images of the locomotive at 1:14:25 - 1:14-30 are very interesting. They are far more clear that what I saw on the 1995 expedition footage but are extremely brief and don't conclusively shed any light on the condition of the locomotive - only raise more questions. What you are looking at is the underside of the fireman's side of the cab. The distinctive inward narrowing curve of the running board is prominently visible where it tapers into the walkway to access the air compressor. An airline is clearly visible bolted to the underside of the running board. I've matched the image to the period photo of the #3512 below. Of note is the pipe from the air compressor with the 90 degree bends and the bottom end of the broken off compressor is just slightly visible.



- 1:14:02 is an interesting view - the large domed rivet heads on the cross member almost look like the the rear mudring of the back end of the firebox. If so, that means the ashpan is completely gone - more on that in a moment... The base of the rear wall of fireman's side of the cab is visible.

- 1:14:43 looks like the tender drawbar pocket.

- 1:14:48 the bent piece of metal they get the ROV tether snagged on is VERY interesting, especially how its peeled off and facing forward.

What I find most interesting is what IS NOT visible. NO ashpan, NO brake rigging, NO frame and NO axles/wheels/rods.

I think it rolled nose first and sideways off the barge, twisted upside down, broke away from the tender, hit the bottom upside down, nose first at an 80-85 degree angle and hit HARD (hence the big 60 meter crater). When it hit, I believe the big flat smokebox acted as a brake, the cylinder saddle shattered, the frame/running gear carried by momentum sheared off, slid forward, buried in the silt and the boiler/cab 'flopped' back into the sediment as if on a hinge. That would explain why the drivers are not visible, the ashpan is gone, the firebox mudring is visible and the piece of metal that the ROV tether was snagged on is peeled off and twisted forward.

(And to address a misconception that seems to be floating around about the accident, there's no evidence on the wreck or from survivor's testimony that the boiler either exploded or imploded. There's no chunks of asbestos or jacketing littering the lake bed and an underwater explosion (or implosion releasing steam) would have resulted in a loud bang followed by a massive geyser on the surface similar to a WW2 depth charge attack, none of which was reported back in 1947).

Another expedition would shed more light on the condition of the locomotive (no pun intended), but from what I'm seeing, the evidence suggests the locomotive is completely destroyed. Just my 2 cents, YMMV.

It would be interesting to compare the footage of the wreck to the #3512's closest surviving sister, the #3522 in Beinfate (Saskatchewan). Next time I'm out that way I'll take some comparison photos and update the thread.

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RwC

Please excuse the crudeness, I whipped this up rather quickly. Here's my take away from the footage - The circled area is what was shown in the film. The sandy area is what is buried in the silt and the red areas are simply gone...

Curious what others see...

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RwC

The documentary can be seen here (with the time stamps referenced in my above post) - https://tubitv.com/movies/100019460/the-last-stop-canada-s-lost-locomotive#:~:text=Watch%20The%20Last%20Stop%3A%20Canada's,2020)%20%2D%20Free%20Movies%20%7C%20Tubi

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RwC

I think that's a very interesting take. It would have been nice to have seen her sitting pretty and upright on the bottom with all her "Jewelry" still in place, but that's just not the reality that we are faced with unfortunately. The thing that confused me was the lack of visible running gear. But at the very least, i imagine that even if the boiler and running gear separated from each other, the frame and wheels should be fairly intact beneath the silt, with damage similar to a head on collision at about 30 mph into a giant pile of mud. But who knows? At the very least, despite her sorry state, the the fact that the 3512 still exists at all is wonderful along with the history attached to her story.

If she hadn't fallen off the barge, she would have been cut up at the end of the steam era and her legacy reduced to pictures and a mere number in an archive of CPR's roster in the steam era. At the very least, we know that she is still there, sleeping peacefully and in good company with the rest of her train. That alone is beautiful and poetic. But if i had to guess, she's probably not the greatest candidate for operational restoration. But maybe if a particularly passionate fan of her won the lottery, maybe something could be done with her running gear, but i'm not holding my breath for that to happen in my lifetime.

Interestingly, there is a note at the end of the film that claims that there are plans underway to extract the wreckage from the 3512. It'll be neat to see what comes of that effort, they have a lot of red tape to cut through and whether they decide to raise the caboose or plow, or go big and try to extract the locomotive itself remains to be seen. But even if that doesn't happen, she's in deep water and even further protected by the silt, so she'll probably outlast just about every other preserved steam locomotive on land today. 3512 gets the last laugh in that regard.

As Doc Brown would say- ‘please excuse the crudity of this model’ but it’s the only toy train I have laying around to be able to demonstrate. I’m guessing this is roughly the angle the #3512 was at when it hit the bottom. Who knows what could happen when a 98 ton locomotive falls 700 feet and suddenly stops? The physics involved are astounding. As far as I know, this is the only accident of its sort involving a steam locomotive, especially where the wreckage has been documented. After surviving a plunge like that, it’s incredible that there’s anything left to photograph, let alone potentially recover artifacts from.

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RwC