You are 100% correct. I recall some years ago when a tourist RR lost their steam engine at the start of the season and they had to use their diesel. Later in the season the president was astonished that ridership had held at about 90%. My reply to him was "It wouldn't matter if a John Deere tractor was pulling it. People come for the ride! That is what attracts them. Something different."

I find it funny how many people on this forum can't see that truth.
I have volunteered at a tourist RR/museum since 2020 and our steam engine hasn't run since before I signed on as crew (though I rode behind it as a paying passenger many times before the fires were dropped the most recent time). We've had a 44-tonner running the entire time I've been a brakeman there, and while it never failed that once a day, someone would ask where our Baldwin light Mike was, you'd only hear the question a couple of times at best.
All the time before that, I would have been the most vocal among you all that, "The public doesn't care what's up front," is a total cop out. But in two years of dealing with the public and talking with passengers about this subject, I have come to the inevitable conclusion that the public doesn't care what's up front. They really don't.
Heck, we didn't really have to advertise Polar Express much, those trains just sold themselves very early on each Christmas season, again, no matter what's up front.

I dunno fam, it's kinda like saying you don't care about Rembrandt if you visit an art museum. A visitor may like art in general, or museums overall, or are looking to fill up an afternoon -- but maybe something happens at that visit that lets you give Rembrandt another look.

It's not a cop-out, but it is a crutch. It's a presumption or admittance about something unfortunate about the audience you seek to reach, but that doesn't mean we, the providers of the experience, should adopt the same mindset.

Perhaps the general audience doesn't know to care what's upfront, but it's literally our job to make them care. It's our job to justify it, present it in context, to interpret it, expose it to new audiences, and give people the ability and insight with which to care. It's our job to make them care.

Now that is fair.
We can all say, "What's up front is important to us" for the group which is running said train. That, I can get behind.
I'm just tired of that being morphed into the incorrect statement that what is important to the group is equally so to the public, which clearly just isn't the truth.
Were it the truth, ridership when steam isn't around would plummet. Groups running Polar Express would have trouble getting people in seats if steam isn't up front.
Those things simply aren't happening.
Say it should be important to those like us. But please, for the love of God, stop saying you're doing it because the public demands it.
They don't.
They really, really, don't.

I think a lot has to do with how you market your operation. Are you selling a train ride or a steam excursion? Are you an excursion railroad or an operating museum? Are you selling a historical experience or scenic ride? Is the steam locomotive part of your theme? It makes a difference. A lot of operations run both steam and diesel and charge a premium for steam and steam still seems to draw more passengers than the diesel equivalent. WMSR has long been known for their dramatic show of steam and their ridership fell substantially when they went all diesel. There could be other factors there as well, but I don't think it's fair to say that people don't care. If your mission is to run steam you need to market it correctly and if you do so successfully then your target audience is going to care.

I'm a huge steam fan but I have to agree that the general public probably doesn't really care. Lets face it - it doesn't really make a big difference to the experience in many/most cases. Its not like you can easily tell what is pulling the train.

I've certainly seen it go both ways. There's a market that really wants it, and another, usually bigger market based on events, that really doesn't care. But, if you sell yourself as a steam experience, better provide it, even if on a limited basis. If you promote yourself as 'Mountain Thunder' for decades, better produce.

There's non-theory lab rats doing this right now, worth watching. "Steam into History" started up as a dedicated and focused civil war reproduction operation using Kloke's 4-4-0, with car and seat capacity very much limited by drawbar pull and Bill Simpson's complete devotion to Lincoln. On days with full crowds, diesels had to help. Then diesels began to substitute. Then it became a whole lot more events based, and they discovered that they'd sell out events even if the other 'standard' ridership was tapering. Need more cars.... now you have more cars than the 4-4-0 can pull. Like everybody else, fall foliage, pumpkins, and Santa Claus rules. Lincoln?

So now "Steam into History" is completely rebranded as the "Northern Central Railroad" and primary power is a pennsy-painted GP9. The railroad shows both power images, and the calendar flags steam vs. diesel. I seriously don't think anybody cares who pulls the easter egg trains on the calendar, or other themed events. It will be interesting to see how it continues to evolve. It's a beautiful 4-4-0 and nice repro cars, but that tends to be it's own thing, watch the calendar if you care. But renaming the railroad away from 'steam' is an interesting exercise to watch in itself; i.e. don't sell what you don't run.

Meanwhile over at Colebrookdale, they have been running nice 1920's heavyweight cars with a GP, and are scrambling to work on ex-LS&I 18 to get it running - literally going the opposite direction. Another great lab to watch the results. Finally, Andy Muller blew the doors off on ridership on the Reading & Blue Mountain last year, running everything from steam to RDC's - one of the handfull of operations to break well above 200K, and bringing back one of the T1's. Worth watching. But you also have to have a railroad that lets you see the power in action. Think Cumbres & Toltec, with all those reverse curves, Durango, Cass Scenic. I've been at too many where you never once see what's up front from the coach seat itself, due to no curves, hills, or the infamous green tunnel.

You can speculate or watch here, here's three great examples of the experiment.

Honestly, wouldn't you have to say that WMSR has the famous locomotive angle covered pretty well ?? I traveled half way across the country to see #1309, and I wasn't alone...

Agree. And I don't see how one could really argue 202 is more famous.

Indeed, and #1309 is a pretty good puller, too.

The diesel is used more for dynamic braking, they don't really need a pusher. Also, going from Frostburg to Cumberland is a 15 mile reverse move with limited visibility, and hiking/biking trails right next to the track along most of the way. Having somebody on the point who can plug 'em is a very good idea.

Sammy is spot on. Turntable or no turntable, going downhill means a lot of smoked shoes if there's no diesel leading you back.

Going back to RBMN's passenger trains they are charging $39.00 for Reading to Jim Thorpe with diesel power (could be Budd RDC's), and $99.00 in Standard Coach behind 2102 over the same route.

Phil Mulligan

I've never been to Frostburg, but I did spent a few moments looking at Google Streetview and aerials. I noticed that there is a drainage inlet on one side of the approach tracks and a manhole cover on the other side of the tracks - below is a screenshot with those two details highlighted in red. I could not locate any nearby outlets in the aerial and street views, so I presume water entering that inlet flows into a sewer system. The manhole cover on the other side of the tracks and another curb inlet next to the depot (not shown on my screenshot) makes me suspect that the tracks cross over a gravity sewer line.

That could explain why the designers chose to have the 3% grade continue to the turntable. The street crossing the tracks is about 40 ft wide (including the sidewalks) and having the track in the crossing on a 3% grade would increase the clearance over a sewer line (under the parking lot) by 14 inches (because 40 x 12 x 0.03 == 14.4)

I must disagree with that being a large problem.