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 Post subject: Another Long-Hidden Steamer Surfaces In NY State
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 6:52 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11432
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
https://railfan.com/rochester-genesee-v ... -switcher/

Quote:
A New York Central shop switcher that was saved by a school custodian in the 1960s has found a new home at New York’s Rochester & Genesee Valley Railroad Museum.

The 0-4-0 tank engine was built in 1924 for the Merchants Despatch Transportation Company, a subsidiary of the New York Central, and used at the Despatch Shops in East Rochester, N.Y., until 1954. The locomotive was briefly put on display outside the shops before being sold to a local scrapper. It was there that former railroader and then-school custodian John Virgilio took an interest in the locomotive. Virgilio tried to buy the locomotive but the scrapper wanted what he thought was too much for it. A few years later, in 1964, when the scrapper was going out of business, Virgilio got them to come down on the price. He moved it to a piece of property in suburban Henrietta in 1965.


More at the link up top (no paywall).

Photo from R&GVRM.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Long-Hidden Steamer Surfaces In NY State
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 10:41 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 4640
Location: Maine
Any information regarding the physical condition of the boiler and cab controls?
Really a nice piece of MDT history.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Long-Hidden Steamer Surfaces In NY State
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 12:23 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 704
Congratulations to Otto Vondrak and his colleagues at RGVRRM for a great save of a neat little switcher that is one of the few extant Nw York Central steam locomotives. I have always enjoyed Otto's thoughtful and informative posts and look forward to hearing more about the restoration of this tank engine from Otto himself on this forum.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Long-Hidden Steamer Surfaces In NY State
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 7:04 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:25 pm
Posts: 484
The RGVRR also has a very rare Plymouth Model BL-2 gasoline powered 7 ton locomotive that was built for MDT East Rochester Shops in 1920. Some would consider it a NYCRR locomotive even though it was built for a subsidiary of the NYCRR.

It is almost restored to fully operating condition. It was collected from an abandoned factory parking lot where it was rolled off the end of the rails and sunk into the dirt and had trees growing up through the frame.

This little "long-hidden" Steamer was clearly visible from the road and you could see if from the NYCRR West Shore "bypass" that passes South of Rochester (seasonal foliage permitting). Attempts to have it donated to the museum were rebuffed in the past.

Glad it is safe now.

Cheers, Kevin.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Long-Hidden Steamer Surfaces In NY State
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 10:17 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 1374
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Vulcan was not a typical builder for a Class 1 such as NYC.

However, MDT was a private company owned by NYC or its subsidiaries (remember all those refrigerator cars with MDT reporting marks) and Vulcan was the right builder for a lokie that size.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: Another Long-Hidden Steamer Surfaces In NY State
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 10:36 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:48 am
Posts: 1513
Location: Byers, Colorado
She sure looks like a Porter to me, or else maybe it's time to get my eyes checked. At any rate, good save and good luck.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Long-Hidden Steamer Surfaces In NY State
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2023 1:52 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:48 pm
Posts: 178
Wilkes Barre is roughly fifty miles closer to Rochester than Pittsburgh is. Not enough to matter much as far as transportation costs are concerned, other than having to pay the Pennsy for a substantial part of it. Vulcan must have made them an deal that they couldn't refuse.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Long-Hidden Steamer Surfaces In NY State
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:23 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 2171
Can someone explain why the PRR would have any particular part of shipping a small locomotive from Wilkes-Barre to Rochester? I don't recall any PRR connection further north. Surely it would have gone either via LV or Lackawanna... maybe Erie but I believe that went northeast when still 'in'.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Long-Hidden Steamer Surfaces In NY State
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:13 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:25 pm
Posts: 484
Quote:
Can someone explain why the PRR would have any particular part of shipping a small locomotive from Wilkes-Barre to Rochester? I don't recall any PRR connection further north. Surely it would have gone either via LV or Lackawanna... maybe Erie but I believe that went northeast when still 'in'.


The PRR had a route up North to Sodus Bay NY (on the South Shore of Lake Ontario). This route at one time shipped lots of coal to Ontario Canada using steamships loaded at a massive coal dock on Sodus Bay. This coal was used mostly for railroad locomotives in Ontario Canada since they lacked abundant sources of railroad grade coal. This line "up north to Sodus" crossed the NYCRR at Lyons NY and interchanged between the PRR and the NYC. A locomotive built in Wilkes Barre PA could have easily gone from Pa to Lyons NY on the PRR and then to East Rochester NY on the NYCRR.

There was (up until the the 1950's) Pullman Sleeping car Service from Rochester NY over the NYCRR "Auburn Road" to Canandaigua NY where the Pullman cars where handed over to the PRR and carried on to Harrisburg and then Washington DC.

I have seen reference's to the NYC moving rail cars built in East Rochester NY by Dispatch Shops (a subsidiary) West to Erie PA before taking "official" possession of the equipment to avoid paying New York State "sales tax" on the equipment. If you "bought" the railcars in New York you had to pay NY sales tax, if you "bought" them in PA and moved them through NY no sales tax was applied.

Apparently whole trains of brand new reefers and gondolas built in East Rochester by MDT where shipped west to Erie Pa before the NYCRR took "ownership"...

Could be a similar "tax minimization scheme" (aka a loophole) in play ?

I could imagine the MDT/NYCRR accountants asking for that locomotive to be shipped to Erie Pa (for example, or NJ) before MDT took over ownership just to save some $$ on the sales tax. Receiving the loco onto "NYCRR Home Rails" (Erie Pa, Pittsburgh Pa (P&LE), NJ (West Shore RR)) would have met the definition of received on the property of the NYCRR in "interstate commerce" making the NY state tax laws inapplicable.

An OK accountant tells you what the "bottom line" is, a great accountant asks you "what do you want the bottom line to be ????...."

Dang those company accountants finding a "loophole" that the gubermint missed when writing the tax code....


Last edited by NYCRRson on Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Long-Hidden Steamer Surfaces In NY State
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2023 9:15 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:48 am
Posts: 1513
Location: Byers, Colorado
Expert = An ex is something that was, and a spurt is a drip under pressure.

I wouldn't claim to be a expert, but I'm still not convinced that engine #5 is a Vulcan. Sure, steamlocomotive.info says she's a Vulcan, but there have been errors in the listings before. There's an awful lot about #5 that looks dead nuts identical to my very own Porter built 32 tons of trouble, although I can't see anything in this picture that says either Vulcan or Porter for certain sure in plain English writin'. (I admit that her number plate doesn't look like a Porter spot plate...)

I'll pop for a steak dinner and pay the bar tab for anybody who can prove who built #5.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Long-Hidden Steamer Surfaces In NY State
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:49 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 1767
Location: New Franklin, OH
I should probably keep my hands off the keyboard when it comes to steam…. On close, uneducated examination, the cylinder and slide valve castings look more Vulcanish to me - the valve casing is taller and there’s no “PORTER” on the cylinder casing. Also, the number plate looks Vulcan except for the number itself. That’s a teeny number on anyone’s plate so I’m thinkin’ the “5” is not original. Could be wrong tho.

On the other hand, the drivers kinda look Porterish but maybe not exactly the usual???

I’d vote Vulcan but reserve the right to change my vote without retribution.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Long-Hidden Steamer Surfaces In NY State
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:49 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 6392
Gents -

J. David Conrad states in his "Steam Locomotive Directory" that the engine is Vulcan s/n 3343, built for M.D.T. (Despatch Shop, Inc.) in April of 1923. Which makes the locomotive 100 years old! Mr. Conrad usually has his facts straight, so I guess I'd have to go with her being a Vulcan.


Les


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 Post subject: Re: Another Long-Hidden Steamer Surfaces In NY State
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2023 5:35 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:29 am
Posts: 64
Location: NE Indiana
Looking at the picture it screams Vulcan to me,everything from the handrail standoffs ,sand domes and even the drip edge on the roof above window are identical to the three we have before we rebuilt them. I'd be willing to bet that the only place you will find Vulcan on it other than a builders plate is the turret valve in the cab ,thats the only thing we found on ours with Vulcan on it.The more I look the more I see Vulcan,compressor support bracket ,lip at top of stack, front number,though small is in the common Vulcan font. They are often confused with others, the one in Kenova WV is listed as a porter I believe but looking at it im pretty sure its a Vulcan as well. I'm pretty certain this is a Vulcan


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 Post subject: Re: Another Long-Hidden Steamer Surfaces In NY State
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2023 10:14 am 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 2171
Quote:
"Receiving the loco onto "NYCRR Home Rails" ... [e.g.] Pittsburgh Pa (P&LE)... would have met the definition of received on the property of the NYCRR in "interstate commerce" making the NY state tax laws inapplicable."

But... wouldn't it then make more sense just to buy a locomotive from a builder IN the Pittsburgh area, and save most of the shipping expense?

The ATSF was notorious for avoiding state tax by having new equipment, including locomotives, delivered right across state lines. I think I have read about other railroads, such as UP, doing the same, but the references for the Santa Fe are easy to find.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Long-Hidden Steamer Surfaces In NY State
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2023 11:47 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:48 am
Posts: 1513
Location: Byers, Colorado
I have to agree with Les, if Dave Conrad says she's a Vulcan, she's a Vulcan. Les, I owe you a steak dinner w/booze.

To refer to an example more familiar to me, half the NdeM 4-8-4s were built by Baldwin, and half by ALCO. To me they're identical except for the builder's plates. This was a one-off design, drawn up to RR requirements, common practice for big RRs.

On the other hand, dinkies were bought from stock or ordered from the catalog. The fact that I've spent years wrenching on Porters and see so many similarities has me wondering if the two competitors may have cooperated more than I used to think, or at least bought smaller parts from the same sources. Maybe I should ask J David....

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