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 Post subject: Re: Playing music at your railroad/museum
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2023 10:56 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:05 am
Posts: 123
Location: Glen Ellyn, IL
Be careful of "Mickey Mouse". The copyrights on old Mickey cartoons may expire. But Mickey itself is a "trademark". Trademarks don't expire as long as they are being used to market the trademark owner's products or services


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 Post subject: Re: Playing music at your railroad/museum
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:42 am 

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:21 am
Posts: 473
Have you gone to a restaurant on your birthday and had the restaurant staff come to your table and sing Happy Birthday to you? They will always sing some made up song, as they don't have a license to sing the standard.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing music at your railroad/museum
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2023 9:46 am 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 1792
Location: New Franklin, OH
Mark Jordan wrote:
Have you gone to a restaurant on your birthday and had the restaurant staff come to your table and sing Happy Birthday to you? They will always sing some made up song, as they don't have a license to sing the standard.

The song “Happy Birthday to You” is in the public domain - no copyright. Play it/sing it to your heart’s content anywhere you like without fear of retribution. Those clappy-happy chants or songs in restaurants or other places are usually part of the company branding (which may or may not be copyrighted). Personally, I dislike that falderal almost as much as the employees dislike doing it.

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 Post subject: Re: Playing music at your railroad/museum
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2023 5:06 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:05 pm
Posts: 1054
Location: MA
jayrod wrote:
Mark Jordan wrote:
Have you gone to a restaurant on your birthday and had the restaurant staff come to your table and sing Happy Birthday to you? They will always sing some made up song, as they don't have a license to sing the standard.

The song “Happy Birthday to You” is in the public domain - no copyright. Play it/sing it to your heart’s content anywhere you like without fear of retribution. Those clappy-happy chants or songs in restaurants or other places are usually part of the company branding (which may or may not be copyrighted). Personally, I dislike that falderal almost as much as the employees dislike doing it.

Yes and no. For the longest time Warner Brothers claimed to own the copyright to Happy birthday to you. It wasn't until somebody doing a documentary and covered a version to predates what Warner Brothers said It owned the rights to making it public domain. So yes restaurants were clapping and singing alternative songs because they didn't want to pay royalties to Warner Brothers.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing music at your railroad/museum
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2023 5:07 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:05 pm
Posts: 1054
Location: MA
Robert Opal wrote:
Be careful of "Mickey Mouse". The copyrights on old Mickey cartoons may expire. But Mickey itself is a "trademark". Trademarks don't expire as long as they are being used to market the trademark owner's products or services

Yes and no, somehow Winnie the Pooh ended up in the public domain, hence how he got the horror movie Blood and Honey.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing music at your railroad/museum
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2023 7:08 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 1792
Location: New Franklin, OH
RCD wrote:
jayrod wrote:
Mark Jordan wrote:
Have you gone to a restaurant on your birthday and had the restaurant staff come to your table and sing Happy Birthday to you? They will always sing some made up song, as they don't have a license to sing the standard.

The song “Happy Birthday to You” is in the public domain - no copyright. Play it/sing it to your heart’s content anywhere you like without fear of retribution. Those clappy-happy chants or songs in restaurants or other places are usually part of the company branding (which may or may not be copyrighted). Personally, I dislike that falderal almost as much as the employees dislike doing it.

Yes and no. For the longest time Warner Brothers claimed to own the copyright to Happy birthday to you. It wasn't until somebody doing a documentary and covered a version to predates what Warner Brothers said It owned the rights to making it public domain. So yes restaurants were clapping and singing alternative songs because they didn't want to pay royalties to Warner Brothers.

There is no yes or no, especially since December, 2015 when the courts finally determined that neither Warner Music nor Warner/Chappell legally owned the copyright. They claimed ownership in 1988 when the bought the last publisher of the song which has it’s roots back to 1893. Sadly, it was also decreed the Warner did not have to return license fees. By law, the copyright would have expired - in 1988.

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 Post subject: Re: Playing music at your railroad/museum
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2023 2:32 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:05 am
Posts: 123
Location: Glen Ellyn, IL
In response to RDC, Mickey Mouse is clearly a "trademark" of Disney. You see Mickey in lots of Disney ads - its a symbol for the company. I don't spend my declining years watching cartoons (although my wife says I should), but I don't recall seeing Winnie being used as a Disney trademark in Disney marketing.

This, by the way, is similar to the Union Pacific "trademark" issue some of you may recall from years past. Using UP's symbol and name to sell stuff without UP's permission is the same as using the Mickey Mouse name or image to sell non Disney stuff without Disney's permission.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing music at your railroad/museum
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2023 7:33 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:28 pm
Posts: 444
As a general topic-the museum where I volunteer plays music at its depot. Endlessly. It has no relevance to the museum experience. Travel back in time (1920s, for example)-will you hear music being played at a depot? Of course not.

This mindless repetition of music is supposedly to provide 'ambiance'. I think it's more a reflection of how society, supposedly, cannot function, at least in a retail setting, without some kind of generic muzak.

The outcome is that patrons are subject to mindless twanging and irrelevant silliness. And lest someone ask, I have no issue with music per se; in fact, I was a music education major at one point.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing music at your railroad/museum
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2023 11:08 am 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 1501
John D wrote:
As a general topic-the museum where I volunteer plays music at its depot. Endlessly. It has no relevance to the museum experience. Travel back in time (1920s, for example)-will you hear music being played at a depot? Of course not.


Says who? A depot agent wouldn’t have a radio or record player?


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 Post subject: Re: Playing music at your railroad/museum
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:33 am 

Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2023 8:43 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Marinette, AZ
As a potential rider (I'd love to get involved in volunteering and preservation actively, but without a driver's license yet it'd be a bit hard -- I'm in my 20s but the events of the last few years left me without a home and I'm just getting back on my feet), I'd probably say not to but it wouldn't be a make or break issue for me. Maybe you could do live music at events but try keeping it light; ultimately the music isn't what we're there for and the 21st century wear everyone is in (or at least most people are in) would break any immersion that could be drummed up with appropriate music.

Maybe try a well enough tuned piano or harpsichord in the station if some kind of music is what you feel is missing; even nowadays some stations have public pianos. Those stations tend to be the bigger ones with enough room for a bit of space between the pianos and the seating because they can be a little on the louder side in confined spaces, but if your station(s) are a certain size or bigger, they could work. Though I realize I'm saying this about the same place that would have live locomotives just outside, and those are loud.

Maybe I'm wrong and it could work well though; the only way to know for sure is to do tests with it, one day on, the other day off, and ask any repeat visitors which they prefer. I'm sure there were a few stations playing records or with a radio on the counter back in the day, just as many as there weren't.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing music at your railroad/museum
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 2:57 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11501
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Here's an important note to the idea of "background music":

The original Muzak background-music company did extensive research, and found that the ideal playing time for most of its music uses--be it background for shopping, factory productivity, or whatever--was twenty minutes of playing, then twenty minutes of silence. NOT full-time playing. That gap is supposedly key to its effectiveness.

If you go to a place where actual Muzak (or one of its competitors) is in use, pay attention. That subtle difference goes unnoticed by most people until they learn about it. And that's the entire point--to NOT be directly noticed. I've personally adopted this approach to other settings such as my car stereo or background music/radio when doing desk work--on for a spell, off for a spell, back on......

On the other hand, there are commercial venues that have taken to blare classical or jazz music specifically to drive away young loiterers (your stereotype skateboarders or stoop-sitters, for example). In those cases, full-time playing is encouraged, as most customers are only exposed to it entering and leaving, or even appreciate the music.

Mind you, I'm one of the blokes who would rather ride the baggage car or tender/engine room of an excursion train, or even the tie-rods hobo-style, than deal with yet another freakin' chorus of "I've Been Working On the Railroad"......... but I'm the tiny minority, and I know it.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing music at your railroad/museum
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 3:03 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11501
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
leppy232 wrote:
Maybe I'm wrong and it could work well though; the only way to know for sure is to do tests with it, one day on, the other day off, and ask any repeat visitors which they prefer.


If you're doing it right, they shouldn't notice--or hardly.

Unless you're actively pursuing a specific theme, like a Christmas/Easter/Halloween train, a historical re-enactment event, or the like, the use of "background music" SHOULD be so subtle as to be almost unnoticeable.


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 Post subject: Re: Playing music at your railroad/museum
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 3:44 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 1410
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Never say Never. At North Philadelphia (primary PRR Philadelphia station for East-West trains), the Usher (on-platform train announcer) would play smooth jazz on his radio, and put the PA microphone up next to the radio speaker. Result: background music for the station.

Phil Mulligan


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