Ramsey's fallout with Gould

NKP1155 · **Joined:** Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:50 am **Posts:** 88

Joesph Ramsey seems to have been Jay Gould's operating maestro. But sometime in the early 1900's things went south for that pair, as Ramsey seems to set out to chart his own course via the Lorain Ashland & Southern, and maybe other venues.

Do I have this right? And do any of you have the background and events that led to Ramsey stepping away/being pushed out of the Gould camp.

jayrod · **Posted:** Thu Apr 04, 2024 5:51 pm

Correct in a broad way. Gould and Ramsey had a "disagreement" shall we say at the completion of the Wabash Pittsburgh Terminal RR and they sort of went to war with each other after Ramsey was squeezed out. The panic of 1907 pretty much did them both in. There's a pretty good account of the Gould/Ramsey relationship in Howard Worley's book on the WPT. You don't find much online about Joseph Henry Ramsey, Jr.

NKP1155 · **Joined:** Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:50 am **Posts:** 88

I'll re-read that chapter of the book tonight. From the chapter heading, it looks like the fallout may have been with George Gould, not the senior miscreant.

jayrod · **Posted:** Thu Apr 04, 2024 7:27 pm

Yup. That'd be George Jay. Not Jason (Jay).

Overmod · **Joined:** Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm **Posts:** 2240

It's the younger Gould, and that's the Ramsey of the famous Ramsey Survey (of 1906) which was the first true high-speed railroad proposed between the ABE area and Pittsburgh. (There would then have been equally high-speed development of a route across New Jersey to New York City access...) Killed first by the panic of 1907 and then the progressive unraveling of Gould's 'transcontinental' plans in the next few years.

The Ramsey survey was good enough to be revived (IIRC in part by Gould's widow) with foreign capital in the late 1920s. This progressed enough that there is a detailed valuation in the ICC files (from 1930; I haven't looked it up yet, cut the cites are there). Of course the Depression, first in Europe and then here, killed it.

Like the PRR Sam Rea Line project, it would NOT have been suitable for modern operations, but would have involved the same enormous number and length of tunnel, mandatory electrification, plenty of 'low grade' curvature suitable for "100mph" operation but not HSR, etc.

NKP1155 · **Joined:** Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:50 am **Posts:** 88

I found out the long way. Via Hathi and Newspaper Archives. In July 1905 Gould and Ramsey have had a falling out that Wall St now sees. Accusations from the Gould camp talk about an overbuilt railroad paying over market prices on the materials that go into the line. Then there is an I quit/you're fired week. Then Ramsey starts a proxy war, trying to drive out Gould. To get the cash he needs for the battle, Ramsey wants to sell off the Little Kanawha Coal Company Gould is also a partner in. Gould gets another partner to try to foreclose on the Coal Company. Then Ramsey lets it be known that Gould paid out $3/4 million to an agent that helped stave off the PRR taking control of the Wabash. Bad blood from the board ensues. A the next annual board meeting, Ramsey finds no support and is relieved of all duties. (Ya know how money sticks together, and Gould had more money.) Ramsey is gone but somehow remains President of Gould's Ann Arbor RR and maybe some other little lines. Ramsey's next push is to try to get the Erie into the National Tube Works in Lorain Ohio via the Lorain, Ashland & Southern in order to cut out some of the traffic going to Gould's Wheeling & Lake Erie. There may be more, but I have a book to finish writing.

jayrod · **Posted:** Fri Apr 05, 2024 10:44 pm

As it turned out, the WPT was overbuilt as they expected more traffic than it got. It went over and through obstacles instead of around. The grade profiles were very constant and the many tunnels and bridges were designed to add a second track. Part of their battle with the PRR included getting stiffed on a shipping agreement with Andrew Carnegie due to PRR offering more favorable rates so the only traffic they had at startup was a bit of bridge traffic, not much passenger traffic and some coal from online mines. No where near close to pay the debt. Then add disastrous lease agreements and shady purchases for equipment supplied by the W&LE to run the railroad pretty much took them both down. Then the all dominoes in the Gould empire started to fall. The whole thing was a financial nightmare with everybody having a hand, or two, in each other's pockets. The other Worley book on the P&WV also has a lot more detail on that part of the story.

Interesting to note, that the successor to the WPT, the P&WV, was profitable. The line is still in use today by the current W&LE.

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Fri Apr 05, 2024 10:54 pm

Notes from my own chronology of central Pennsylvania railroading:

Quote:

4-1-1925 The last serious new railroad proposal involving the Central Susquehanna Valley, as the New York, Pittsburgh & Chicago RR, a project originally proposed by Joseph Ramsay (ex-Wabash RR and Wheeling & Lake Erie RR president) and rail magnate E.H. Harriman in early 1900s, then chartered in 1914 (or 1919?), is re-chartered and proposed before the Interstate Commerce Commission by Leonor F. Loree (ex-general manager of PRR, later Delaware & Hudson official), to run from New York City to the Pittsburgh area via Easton, Pottsville, Herndon, a high-level trestle across the Susquehanna River to Snyder Co., up the Middle Creek Valley to Middleburg, and then northwest to Penns Creek and Roe Valleys and then west. Maximum grade westbound 0.4%, eastbound 0.3%; NYC-Chicago mileage 78 miles shorter than next-shortest route (PRR), in effect a “railroad super-highway” comparable to the later Interstate Highway system. Estimated cost $260 million. The ICC refused permission for this proposal in Feb. 1926, on belief that inadequate traffic would be attracted (all from other existing lines) to justify the expenditure, then after further review of arguments, orders reopened for further review, which doesn't happen until Dec. 17, 1929 and January 28, 1930. Oral arguments heard Nov. 18, 1930; The proposal was floated again in 1930, to no avail. (For further reading, see TRAINS Magazine, June 1943, pp. 26-34.)

The surveys/route were later dusted off and re-examined in July 1955 for potential use for the "Keystone Shortway" or Interstate 80 across Pennsylvania, which opened in 1970.

Ramsey's fallout with Gould

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