Does anyone know if an all-time roster of Steamtown equipment ever been compiled? That would include all New England- and Scranton-era pieces. If so, it would constitute a HUGE list.

K.R. Bell

http://rrmuseumpa.org
Kurtrbell@hotmail.com

Kurt,

The Steamtown Foundation did have a printed roster, ca. perhaps 1975, detailing ALL of their holdings when they were in Vermont, a three- or four-page foldout brochure with VERY fine type and excruciating roster history on each piece. It did, as I recall, list every last piece of rolling stock (although I'm hazy as to whether it detailed the coaches), steam tractor, roller, etc. on the property. These brochures turn up quite frequently in the same piles of brochures you no doubt have; if you don't have one, get to me and I'll round one up for photocopying.

What's been done since then may be open to conjecture. Part of the problem with documenting the Scranton operation over the years is the way the marketing end ("STEAMtown") was forced to downplay or "disown" diesels and occasionally use equipment not owned by the Foundation or NPS, to say nothing of the "Canadian" problem.

lner4472@bcpl.net

Kurt,

Gordon Chappell of the NPS in Oakland did a study on Steamtown (now out of print). It's called Steam Over Scranton: The Locomotives of Steamtown.

Do you want to borrow my copy?

Ted Miles

ted_miles@nps.gov

While the Chappell book is no longer being published, copies are still available for sale at Steamtown's museum shop. Even this info. is old, since it doesn't include Spang & Chalfont no. 8, yet does include Union Pacific 737, CPR 1293, CPR 2816, CN 5288, and diesels that have left the collection since publication. A roster described by Kurt would be fascinating, especially to track down what isn't in the collection now.

mustang746@earthlink.net

Here is the book online.

http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/steamtown/shs.htm

> Does anyone know if an all-time roster of
> Steamtown equipment ever been compiled? That
> would include all New England- and
> Scranton-era pieces. If so, it would
> constitute a HUGE list.

> K.R. Bell

Although the discussion has moved toward locomotives, they are relatively easy to document, as J David Conrad was the CMO of Steamtown at the time it moved, and his tenure accounted for over 98% of all of the locomotives Steamtown Foundation/SNHS would have owned.

But Kurt has asked for equipment, and that is incredibly facinating in and of itself. By my own count, (and I was Car Foreman during much of Dave's tenure) Steamtown went through SIX different groups of coaches in its history (of course, once upon a time, it was cheaper to buy more coaches for $750 ea than it was to rebuild them).

These groups are:

B&M woods: Now at Strasburg and scattered about

CNJ standards -wood windows: Ended up on pier in Boston--failed comercial venture

Small group of DL&W Boontons and Stillwells--Boontons still there, stillwells scrapped.

CNJ modernized with aluminum windows--Most still there, two going back to Jersey as we speak

LIRR Ping Pongs--bought for bicentenial train, mostly sold at Foundation auction in 1987

DL&W MU Trailers--ten purchased ca. 1984

While I was at Steamtown, we operated a few Old CNJ, Modernized CNJ, Boontons, MU Trailers, and a few LIRR cars (1983-1987)

I have the materials to make about 90% of an alltime roster, still it would total well over 100 pieces, and I just do not have the time right now. . . .

Steve


SZuidervee@aol.com

> (although I'm hazy as to whether it detailed
> the coaches), steam tractor, roller, etc. on
> the property.

Steamtown had steam tractors and steam rollers? I didn't know that. Does Steamtown have them still, or have they been sold off?

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Vehicles
james1@pernet.net

> Steamtown had steam tractors and steam
> rollers? I didn't know that. Does Steamtown
> have them still, or have they been sold off?

No, as far as I know, all non-rail steam engines have left the Steamtown collection. A few pieces were sold off before Steamtown USA moved to Scranton, but actually a lot of it was moved down along with the rail equipment. This stuff made up a sizable chunk of the Steamtown USA auction. I don't know who acquired the various pieces.

Steamtown USA had a least two steam traction engines (tractors), one was a sizable Buffalo-Pitts; I think the other was a Case. I believe the rollers included a 3-wheel and a tandem.

Blount had collected a handfull of stationary steam engines--one was an early walking beam engine. I can't remember, but he may have had some steam pumps as well. The stationary engines were displayed at Bellows Falls under an open-sided pole shed. These were non-operating displays, although Blount may have had thoughts of a working exhibit.

The non-rail steam collection also included one or two early horse-drawn steam fire engines, a (Marion?) steel-wheeled (vs. being crawler) steam shovel, and a massive Raymond crawler steam crane.

The crane was one of the pieces that didn't go to Scranton. The first time I made it into the Scranton shop (back in 85 or 86), one of the fire engines and the Buffalo Pitts tractor were sitting inside. I remember the steam shovel sitting outside. Most of the other items were still in the gondolas that brought them down from VT. If you have photos, movies, or video from the Spring 1986 Steamtown USA railfan weekend, the "photo freight" consist included the gons still loaded with this stuff. I still remember the walking beam stationary engine bouncing around as 2317 charged uphill with none other than Ross Rowland at the throttle!

Regards,
Jim Robinson

Kurt,

I had another thought on a source of information about Steamtown equipment. There is probably a book in your library called Park and Museum Displays. It is spiral bound from about 1966 and it covers everything: Coaches, baggage cars, freight cars,cabooses etc. I don't have the authors name right at hand so let me know if you need it.

Ted Miles

Ted Miles

ted_miles@nps.gov

>to say nothing of the
> "Canadian" problem.

Someday, I will see references to Steamtown and the Canadian engines and not reach for my soapbox... someday. ;-)

Alexander, allow me to move your quotes so that we make "Canadian problem" into Canadian "problem" since it has always been the "problem" that has had a spurious foundation.

The xenophobia hit a crescendo with the auction prior to the NPS takeover, though it has continued somewhat since then.

If it said Canadian on it, it was almost sure to be gone. A group of us were only half-joking about lettering everything "Lackawanna" before the final decisions were made.

What happened at the time of the 1988 auction (and after) not only eliminated some the best candidates for operation, but also removed classes of locomotives that had pedigrees of running in the United States on a regular basis.

Anyway, to see a list of steam engines that have left Steamtown go to:

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/pennsy/s ... lowsfalls/

For conversation?s sake, I'll add some more to Wes? list about engines that have left (understanding that this is all water under the bridge)...

#1218 Norfolk & Western Class a 2-6-6-4 ? Left Steamtown Foundation in the 1970?s for display in Roanoke. When restored for the steam program, ownership transferred to the NS in trade for two diesels to Steamtown. Ran for several years, now stored amidst rumors and innuendo. ;-)

#89 Canadian National 2-6-0 ? Technically owned by Nelson Blount, not Steamtown, she steams at the Strasburg Rail Road.

#96 Canadian National 2-6-0 ? Used as a parts source for #89 in VT during the 1960?s, today she awaits a future on the Ohio Central Railroad.

#30053 (53) London & South Western M7 Class 0-4-4T ? Left Steamtown in 1987 and steamed in 1992. Now at the Swanage Railway in Dorset, where she once worked in pre-preservation days. A book on her is at: http://www.finial.ndirect.co.uk/m7book.html

#4 Eastern Gas & Fuel Co. Baldwin 0-6-0 ? On display at Gorham, NH with a tender from a B&M B-15 2-6-0.

#2 Simons Wrecking Co. Porter 0-6-0T - Was to be restored, now disassembled at Newbury, MA.

#6 Simons Wrecking Co. Alco-Cooke 0-4-0T seems to have disappeared. Any ideas?

#3719 Illinois Central 2-6-0 Brooks ? on display at IRM.

A Cavan and Leitrim Railway 2-6-2T went back Ireland. Any info on her today?

#1098 Canadian Pacific D-10 4-6-0 sold and left Steamtown in 1986 for Rail Tours, Inc. in Jim Thorpe, PA. She has steam several times and now waits her next service dates.

#1551 Canadian National 4-6-0 ? Traded in 1986 to Jerry Jacobson for Baldwin Shops 0-6-0 #26 in operable condition. #26 now out of service for heavy repairs at Scranton. #1551 is a regular tourist hauler on the Ohio Central since 1989.

#1395 Canadian National 4-6-0 class H-6-g ? Sold in 1988 now stored at the Coopersville & Marne RR in Michigan.

#30926 Southern Railway - Schools Class 4-4-0 ?Repton? - The most interesting locomotive to run in Scranton (I still can?t believe I SAW this) was The Repton. Since leaving Steamtown and returning to the UK, she has been steaming on the North Yorkshire Moors Railway.

#2816 Canadian Pacific 4-6-4 ? Now operable on the CPR as ?The Empress.? Left Steamtown under the NPS, after having given up parts here and there. Ended service on longer ?commuter? runs out of Montreal.

#1278 Canadian Pacific G5 4-6-2 ? Traded to Gettysburg for CN 2-82 #3254. #1278 was restored to operation on the GETTY. Suffered a crownsheet failure and now awaits restoration at the Ohio Central Railroad.

#1293 Canadian Pacific G5 4-6-2 ? Left Steamtown inoperable in 1996. Returned to service in 1997 and still runs on the Ohio Central Railroad.

#1246 Canadian Pacific G5 4-6-2 ? Left Steamtown inoperable and remains with a bright future stored by new owners Railroad Museum of New England.

#2929 Canadian Pacific 4-4-4 - headed to???

#5288 Canadian National 4-6-2 to TVRM 2001 for restoration. Ran on the Central Vermont.

Wes lists these others. Any updates?

Massachusetts Electric 0-4-0T #1 was sold to a private owner. It is now in an industrial park in Oaks, PA.

New Haven Trap Rock 0-4-0T #38 (sister #43 still in collection) was sold. Today, #38 is being restored and is kept inside a building in Branford, CT. It was recently inspected and is looking good.

An unusual (vertical boilered) 1877 Belgian 0-4-0T, the "Prince of Liege" was sold to a private owner and at last report was displayed near a railroad station in Great Bend, PA.

Union Pacific 4-4-0 #737 is now at the Portola Railroad Museum.

That?s 23 engines on the list, thus far. Of the 21, 9 have steamed since leaving Steamtown. Interesting list.

Of course, you have to note that CN #3254, BLW #26 and the Sprang & Chalfont engine have joined the collection.

Anyone want to do diesels and rolling stock?

Rob Davis


Ahead of the Torch
trains@robertjohndavis.com

Steve gets us off to a good start:

> B&M woods: Now at Strasburg and
> scattered about

The Railroad Museum of New England has at least one.

> LIRR Ping Pongs--bought for bicentenial
> train, mostly sold at Foundation auction in
> 1987

Many scrapped in Scranton.

Here are others that are no longer with the collection:

Rutland caboose #26 - Bellows Falls, VT
Rutland caboose #27 - Bartonsville, VT
Rutland plow X103 - to junk dealer in Franklin, NH (still there?)
One DL&W/B&M coach is at Sunapee Station (Wendell's, NH)



Ahead of the Torch
trains@robertjohndavis.com

> I had another thought on a source of
> information about Steamtown equipment. There
> is probably a book in your library called
> Park and Museum Displays. It is spiral bound
> from about 1966 and it covers everything:
> Coaches, baggage cars, freight cars,cabooses
> etc. I don't have the authors name right at
> hand so let me know if you need it.

Randolph Kean, and I have it. 1973. Let's see what I can add in coaches, etc.:

2 High Iron combine "Nonad", ex-CNJ
4 Mass Elec steam crane Industrial Brownhoist 1910, ex-US Navy 4156
27 Mondanock, Steamtown & Northern caboose [noted as being in Bartonsville, Vt. now]
28 caboose, ex-Rutland [is this the "26" at Bellows Falls?]
50 Caboose, B&M Concord, NH shops ex-Claremont & Concord, nee-B&M
51 Caboose, Ex-B&M 104331, later C&C
53 Caboose, ex-StJLC, exx-B&M, possibly Boston & Lowell, built 1870s
60 Snowplow, ex-B&M pre-1910, later C&C
84 B&M Diner-lounge Mountaineer, built 1930, ex-B&M diner "Maine"
102 1889 Jackson & Sharp coach "Mt. Holly", ex Quebec Ry Light & Power Co interurban trailer 102; exx-Quebec, Montmorency & Charlevoix Ry
124 coach, ex-QRL&P 104, exx-QM&C
129 Rutland baggage ACF 10-1914, later Rut X-627, Green Mt X-603
146 GMR "Mt. Kilburn", ex-B&M
221 coach ex, NYS&W, NYC, B&A
222, 223 D&H coaches
228 ex-B&M coach later tool car
243 GMR combine "Mt. Sunapee", ex-B&M work train
253 GMR Osgood Bradley coach 1902, Rutland 253 260 Rutland combine
265 IC coach repainted for movie, ex-GMR 265 "Mt. Washington, ex-B&M
270 Rutland coach Wagner 1899, later tool X-622 then X-190 then GMR [this was retained by GMR for its tourist run, right?]
303 Steamtown coach
704 Rutland coach
718-721 GMR coaches 718-721, ex-CNJ
723-727 ditto [nine CNJ total]
1266 Burlington sleeper 1950 "Sheyenne River", ex-GN Ry
2777 Rutland flat ACF 3-1910
6705 Great Western (England) coach [I think this is still rotting at Tobyhanna]
8015, 8050, 8253 Rutland box cars
9008 Rutland box car Youngstown 1927
W-3013 B&M boxcar later tool car
X-170 Rutland pile driver
X-617 Rytland work train coach
Denehotso AT&SF sleeping lounge obs Pullman 1938 reblt 1954-55
Monomoy Island private sleeper/obs Pullman 1896, ex-B&O business car 903 [over at B&O Museum back lot now?]
Misc: Rutland tender for X-170; Rutland box work car for X-170; Mass Electric Co. hopper; Franconia Paper Co. crane, built in FP shops; two ex-B&M combine bodies; two B&M boxcar bodies.

Go to it, gang.



lner4472@bcpl.net

Rob,

Thanks for posting the list. Some comments/updates:

> #6 Simons Wrecking Co. Alco-Cooke 0-4-0T
> seems to have disappeared. Any ideas?

No, I don't; will have to look at it's history and C.N. in Conrad's directory, and see if I have it listed under another identity.

> #3719 Illinois Central 2-6-0 Brooks ? on
> display at IRM.

Correct, ALCO (Brooks) 3697/1900. I have a picture of it I took in Union in "Surviving World Steam Locomotives". It carries #3039 now, and I have it listed with #3706?

> A Cavan and Leitrim Railway 2-6-2T went back
> Ireland. Any info on her today?

It is with the Great Southern Railway Preservation Society, Tralee. Current status unknown.

> An unusual (vertical boilered) 1877 Belgian
> 0-4-0T, the "Prince of Liege" was
> sold to a private owner and at last report
> was displayed near a railroad station in
> Great Bend, PA.

This must be "Hasard Coal #336A", built by St. Leonard (Liege) in 1877 as C.N. 466.

I have this listed at the Depot House Restaurant, Susquehanna, PA. Has it since moved to Great Bend?

I am thinking this the "tram engine" that Blount referred to his autobiography. I guess it has since lost it's carbody. Of course, I could be wrong.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Locomotives
james1@pernet.net

Jim,

Thanks for the reply. Your message brought to mind that I have found one of them.

The Steam Fire Engine was Silsby 725/1883; once owned by the Ludlow VT FD. It is being restored by Bailie Rutherford & Stan Pratt in Honesdale, PA; according to a Silsby list I found on the net.

The rest of them (pumps included), I have no idea. If Nelson Blount was anything, he was certainly a big thinker! How much of this would have survived had he not acquired it! I am not so sure he was "misguided", as Dave mentioned, I think politics had more to do with Blount's decision to move than a lack of appreciation for the facility he had.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

> Steamtown USA had a least two steam traction
> engines (tractors), one was a sizable
> Buffalo-Pitts; I think the other was a Case.
> I believe the rollers included a 3-wheel and
> a tandem.

> Blount had collected a handfull of
> stationary steam engines--one was an early
> walking beam engine. I can't remember, but
> he may have had some steam pumps as well.
> The stationary engines were displayed at
> Bellows Falls under an open-sided pole shed.
> These were non-operating displays, although
> Blount may have had thoughts of a working
> exhibit.

> The non-rail steam collection also included
> one or two early horse-drawn steam fire
> engines, a (Marion?) steel-wheeled (vs.
> being crawler) steam shovel, and a massive
> Raymond crawler steam crane.

> The crane was one of the pieces that didn't
> go to Scranton. The first time I made it
> into the Scranton shop (back in 85 or 86),
> one of the fire engines and the Buffalo
> Pitts tractor were sitting inside. I
> remember the steam shovel sitting outside.



Surviving World Steam Vehicles
james1@pernet.net

> Randolph Kean, and I have it. 1973. Let's
> see what I can add in coaches, etc.:

> 2 High Iron combine "Nonad",
> ex-CNJ

Still at Steamtown, restored and in service. CNJ 303

> 4 Mass Elec steam crane Industrial
> Brownhoist 1910, ex-US Navy 4156

Think scrapped in Vermont

> 27 Mondanock, Steamtown & Northern
> caboose [noted as being in Bartonsville, Vt.
> now]
> 28 caboose, ex-Rutland [is this the
> "26" at Bellows Falls?]
> 50 Caboose, B&M Concord, NH shops
> ex-Claremont & Concord, nee-B&M
> 51 Caboose, Ex-B&M 104331, later C&C
> 53 Caboose, ex-StJLC, exx-B&M, possibly
> Boston & Lowell, built 1870s

> 60 Snowplow, ex-B&M pre-1910, later
> C&C

Was moved to Scranton present status??

> 84 B&M Diner-lounge Mountaineer, built
> 1930, ex-B&M diner "Maine"

Moved to Scranton. Unrestored but I think one of the best HW diners still to be restored in existance.

> 102 1889 Jackson & Sharp coach "Mt.
> Holly", ex Quebec Ry Light & Power
> Co interurban trailer 102; exx-Quebec,
> Montmorency & Charlevoix Ry
> 124 coach, ex-QRL&P 104, exx-QM&C

These made it to Scranton, and were used as display cars in early operation of SNHS

> 129 Rutland baggage ACF 10-1914, later Rut
> X-627, Green Mt X-603
> 146 GMR "Mt. Kilburn", ex-B&M

> 221 coach ex, NYS&W, NYC, B&A
> 222, 223 D&H coaches

Two of these had been deaccessed earlier, maybe even back to D&H. I remember seeing one in Building 29 at Colonie in late 80's. One was left in BF at the time of the move.

> 228 ex-B&M coach later tool car
> 243 GMR combine "Mt. Sunapee",
> ex-B&M work train
> 253 GMR Osgood Bradley coach 1902, Rutland
> 253 260 Rutland combine
> 265 IC coach repainted for movie, ex-GMR 265
> "Mt. Washington, ex-B&M
> 270 Rutland coach Wagner 1899, later tool
> X-622 then X-190 then GMR [this was retained
> by GMR for its tourist run, right?]

> 303 Steamtown coach

This is same as Nomad

> 704 Rutland coach

> 718-721 GMR coaches 718-721, ex-CNJ
> 723-727 ditto [nine CNJ total]

717 and 719 went to Scranton, the remainder was on the pier next to the pier with Anthony's Restaurant in Boston in the early 90's

> 1266 Burlington sleeper 1950 "Sheyenne
> River", ex-GN Ry

Sold at 88 auction to a NPS Ranger from Cape Cod!

> 2777 Rutland flat ACF 3-1910
> 6705 Great Western (England) coach [I think
> this is still rotting at Tobyhanna]
> 8015, 8050, 8253 Rutland box cars
> 9008 Rutland box car Youngstown 1927
> W-3013 B&M boxcar later tool car

> X-170 Rutland pile driver

In Scranton

> X-617 Rytland work train coach

> Denehotso AT&SF sleeping lounge obs

Sold at 88 auction to Wm Fuehring Golden Age Rail

> Monomoy Island private sleeper/obs Pullman
> 1896, ex-B&O business car 903 [over at
> B&O Museum back lot now?]

Nope, different car. Barely made it to Scranton wrapped in tarps and strengthened with tie rods and 4x4's

> Misc: Rutland tender for X-170; Rutland box
> work car for X-170;

In Scranton

Mass Electric Co.
> hopper;

Scrapped in BF

Franconia Paper Co. crane, built in
> FP shops; two ex-B&M combine bodies; two
> B&M boxcar bodies.

> Go to it, gang.

Also, some of the wooden freight cars have been traded to the RR Museum of New England for other freight cars. Howie, how 'bout it?


SZuidervee@aol.com