Additional commentary by Jack Drury on the trails the Adirondack should have besides this one:

http://www.broadwingadventures.com/1/po ... ebate.html

http://www.broadwingadventures.com/1/po ... rails.html

As of last year I moved back to northern Maine where I grew-up and spent my youth snowshoeing, hunting and yes, snowmobiling. Up here we have many, many miles of abandoned rail bed that have been converted to trails - ATV, Snowmobile etc. These include the former segments of Bangor & Aroostook line, Canadian Pacific and Aroostook Valley R.R.

That being said I few weeks ago I took a snowmobile trip with family members to Allagash Village and back to Sinclair - a round trip of approx. 160 miles. In my youth it would have taken us about two days if not more to cover that distance! A long outing to us was going about 30 miles with a stop to burn a few hotdogs over a fire along the trail. It was relaxed and fun.

I came back from my recent trip disappointed - the sport as I knew it in my youth has changed beyond all recognition - for instance The trails, be they rail beds or of specific use are groomed 14 foot highways. All day we were encountering newer sleds traveling at un-believable speeds - 60 - 70 miles an hour is not un-common. I remember distinctly just south of Fort Kent a sled cresting a rise with at least five feet of air. He had no idea we were on the other side of that knoll.

Anyway, that's what my view of the sport has become - i.e. how fast you can get from point A to point B.

Now in regards to rails to trails. Up here snowmobiling contributes significantly to the local economy but you must remember in most cases the rails were removed long before the rail to trail movement. In fact a significant portion of the AVR line was purchased by a local family to keep it available for public use after the rails were removed.

Do I support converting a potentially viable rail line to a trail? Absolutely not! Only when the rails are long gone and the horse is dead should that happen. I have also experienced the co-existence model. a number of years ago the state of Maine acquired the former Maine Central Mountain Division from Westbrook, Maine through to the Maine/New Hampshire border. They have since built a paved bike/hike path that shares the right of way. While this solution may provide for both camps - save the rails and lets make a trail - it is costly. In my opinion it also presents some potential safety issues should the rail be put back into service and I am sure given the fear of liability the rails will loose out.

Anyway, I hope the Adirondack rails will stay in place and put into use. Once removed its never coming back. One aspect of this argument that I think should be strongly made is the "Green" factor - This is one instance where a case can be made that keeping and utilizing the rail would be the "Green" thing to do.



Above is a photo taken on the MEC Mountain Division. Given current economic conditions I am not holding my breath that the rails will be used anytime soon but at least they are still in place.

And now, ironically, we come back full circle to the original subject heading:

This arrived in my inbox overnight through a whistle & horn collecting list:

The date of disappearance has been narrowed down by a railfan. It now appears that the horns disappeared between Feb 9 and March 16.

I would be shocked if this was done by a trail supporter. The act is all wrong and so is the location (Utica). It was no doubt some dirt bag "collector" that was never taught by his/her parents that stealing is wrong. Supposedly there is security camera footage in the area so here is hopping the wrongful party is caught.

Submitted to the Adirondack Daily Enterprise and awaiting approval (which may be problematical given the length), and submitted here for reference:

***********************************************

Advocates of converting the Adirondack Scenic Railroad to a trail have made quite a number of claims about how it would be cheaper to create this trail than to restore it as a railroad. Let's look at what some actual numbers might be.

Interestingly, we get some of the best numbers from a report by a trail consulting company, Camoin Associates. This report, originally commissioned by ADK Action and currently available through The Adirondack Recreational Trail Advocates (ARTA), has estimates from 2010 for the cost of converting or rebuilding the segment between Tupper Lake and Lake Placid, a distance of 34 route-miles. This report has a great deal of information, including the following numbers in regard to the cost of trail conversion, here broken down to a per-mile figure:

Railroad Rehabilitation:$320,000 per mile
Permanent Trail Conversion: $440,000 per mile
Temporary Trail Conversion: : $550,000 per mile

The principle difference in the temporary vs. permanent trail conversion is an estimate of the cost of storing the track material for 10 years. It does not include the cost of reinstalling this material.

It is notable that the cost of the permanent trail conversion does include a credit for the salvage or resale of track material. This reduces the cost of the trail conversion by about $41,000 per mile, making the actual cost about $481,000 per mile.

Speaking of rail salvage brings up the clams made by some trail advocates that "the salvage of the rail will pay for the trail." As we can see above, that's not quite true, at least as allowed by Camoin.

But let's not be satisfied with that. Let's see what we do have.

First, let's figure out the tonnage in steel we have for this 34-mile stretch of track. We have the rails, obviously, and I happen to know that it's a combination of of sections weighing 105 pounds per yard and 90 pounds per yard, but I don't know the proportion, so we'll be generous and assume it is all 105 pound section.

34 miles, times 2 (2 rails), times 1,760 (yards per mile), times 105--12,566,400 pounds, which would be 6,283 American (short)tons. . .

Then there are about 3,200 ties per mile, each with two tie plates weighing about 30 pounds each, plus eight spikes weighing about three-quarters of a pound each--more fiddling there comes to 7,180,800 pounds, that's another 3,590 short tons. . .

There are probably multiple tracks in here at some locations, plus the weights of the joint bars and their bolts, we'll just fudge that with another 10%, let's round the whole thing up to 11,000 short tons.

What's all that worth? Those 11,000 US (short) tons work out to a rounded 9,980 metric tonnes, and as of a month ago, that would have brought $394 per tonne, or about $3,932,000. That's a bit less than $116,000 per mile, and well over Camoin's estimate of $41,000 per mile, but it still is only 24% of the cost of the trail.

And, I might add, based on the large spread between these figures here and Camoin's estimate, suggests the price I had to work with was with this rail delivered to a scrap mill. The last time I looked, rail was inanimate; it's not going to get up and walk there on its own. Figure a scrap man will want at least half of this to get the rail delivered and make a profit, and then you are looking at a measly 12% of your trail cost (which comes in line with what Camoin allowed).

Of course, the cost of conversion isn't the only thing to keep in mind. This trail, or the railroad, will require maintenance. The Camoin study uses a low but fairly realistic estimate of $1,500 per mile to do the things you need to keep the trail open. This is a bit higher than the averaged $1,324 per mile the railroad has received for the entire 119-mile long corridor. Both numbers are, in my opinion, pretty realistic, although it might be argued that the railroad has not been adequately reimbursed for its track maintenance (which is the arrangement it currently operates under). These numbers are in the range for the maintenance of a secondary road, which brings up an important point--much of what you have to pay for for infrastructure like this is the supporting structure--drainage ditches, bridge painting and repair, culvert clearing, tunnel maintenance where you have those, and in the Adirondacks, dealing with beavers. The cost of maintaining what I call the superstructure or running surface--track for the railroad, whatever is the paving surface of road or trail--is relatively minor, and certainly is the same in any given location for a similar structure.

All of this suggests that, financially at least, the trail and the railroad are at best a wash, with an actual capital advantage going to the railroad.

Now, that's not the only metric we might want to use, and the trail people will rightly claim that we might want to look at what benefits, including economic growth we might get from the trail, but that will have to be for another time. . .

References:

Adirondack Rail Corridor Economic Impact Study (Camoin & Associates), pages 8-16, accessed April 3, 2014

http://www.thearta.org/Camoin%20Rail-Co ... Report.pdf

International Scrap Register, No. 1 HMS (heavy melting steel), East Coast, prices dated March 4, 2014, accessed April 3, 2014:

http://www.scrapregister.com/scrap-pric ... states/260

J3a,

In your calculations you forgot one major cost, disposal of the ~109,000 ties (34 miles x 3200 ties/mile = 108,800 ties + sidings + ex-ties), can't leave those in the woods... It might eat up most of the remaining gain from the rail scrapping.

Rich C.

Just keeping an eye on the opposition:

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.co ... l?nav=5041

It's in print:

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.co ... l?nav=5041

Interestingly, it's been noted and linked at "Next Stop Tupper Lake" (Facebook site for the railroad, with favorable comment, naturally), but hasn't been posted at either of the ARTA sites, which surprises me; I would think they would welcome the chance to tell me I was full of hooey, or to say I should keep my nose away or something.

Interesting Letter to the editor & Senator Patric Toomey
http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.co ... l?nav=5005

Rich C

I thought this might make a good comparison. Here in Maine we have the remains of the Maine Central Mountain Division which is currently owned by the state of Maine. As mentioned in my previous post, a portion of this line has been converted into a rail-AND -trail which consists of a paved trail adjacent to the existing track.

Anyway, here is a link to a very detailed report in regards to cost etc. of restoring the line back to service which has been dormant since the 1980's.

http://www.maine.gov/mdot/ofbs/documents/pdf/MountainDivisionStudyReport_001.pdf

As you can see the report is very, very detailed and complete and is a good example of what such a report should include. However, remember that the economic, geographic and social conditions in Maine are different than those in New York.

You also need to remember that the over-riding goal of this particular rail-trail project was to utilize the right-of-way of a rail line that was long dormant while preserving the existing infrastructure for potential future re-activation as opposed to removing an active rail line. In fact a couple of years ago the state spent 5 million relaying approx. 5 miles of rail that had been removed by Pan Am.

In regards to the trail itself:
I have not been able to confirm the actual cost per mile for the paved trail but in 2010 it was estimated at $300,000.00 to $500,000.00 per mile. In addition I have not compiled figures for yearly maintenance cost such as fence repair, erosion repair (this is a major issue where the trail has altered the side-slope of the roadbed without proper retaining structures.) Interestingly there is considerable controversy with abutting land owners concerning spraying for brush control and perceived associated health risks. This alone runs $250.00 to $300.00 per mile.


Best regards,

Terry Harper

Keeping an eye on things, and one of them is this editorial that I can only describe as so confusing as to be bizarre:

http://adirondackdailyenterprise.com/pa ... bust-.html

The trail people like it, but I read it, and I can't help but think this fellow is trying to out-satirize Jonathan Swift. If that's so, and I'm not entirely positive that is so, then he has gone over their heads. . .and I wonder if he hasn't done so for me.

We routinely value the cost of tie disposal in the northeast at anywhere from $8.00 to $10.00 each. For 109,000 ties, that would add an additional average cost of $981,000.00 to the cost of the trail conversion. And if NY is anything most of New England, the state won't be allowed to give them away or sell them. They will ulitimately require they be incinerated or buried so that there is absolutely no remaining lingering liabilty due to the creosote. Just something to add to the equation....


Rob Gardner

Two new opinion pieces, both supportive of the railroad and also critical of the trail crowd, and both by local businessmen; researching both reveals that one apparently runs a bulk oil distribution center, the other is a photographer.

http://adirondackdailyenterprise.com/pa ... l?nav=5256

http://adirondackdailyenterprise.com/pa ... l?nav=5041

Well, we are getting some reactions to the latest letters from rail backers in the Adirondacks.

We'll start with this one (also linked above), by David H. Link, a businessman who runs an oil distributorship in Blossvale:

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.co ... l?nav=5005

And the reactions, starting at "The Adirondack Rail Trail" site:

Initial comment, by the site administrator: Stop blaming the messenger. If the train was considered an asset to these communities we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Following comments:

Daniel ODonoju: As someone who has successfully helped convert long abandoned rail ROW to parks and hiking/biking trails in Queens,NY, (Brooklyn-Queens Greenway) I would suggest keeping the rail intact is a better tactic to preserving recreational open space of all kinds. I'm not familiar with the train in question, is there an active train there? If not, it can serve as a catalyst to a variety of recreational uses, not just snowmobiles. A recreational train can be an option. If there is a need for re-use as transportation, it is much easier to convert an historical existing ROW than condemning private or public land for a new one. This is a great public asset, with great potential PUBLIC value in the future. Meanwhile, partially covering the bed with wood chips makes an excellent hiking/ mountain biking venue without ANY adjacent environmental impact, and extends the usefulness to 365 day, without the need to enjoy it using it, drive to it with an internal combustion engine.
April 16 at 1:39pm · Like · 1

The Adirondack Rail Trail Daniel: ODonoju you might want to check out our website http://www.thearta.org to find out more about what we are trying to do here and about the terrain we are talking about before posting what you think we should do. There is not going to be any boardwalks built or filled in wetlands to accommodate a trail built along the side of the rails. No one is going to be filling in 80 plus miles of tracks every year with wood chips to accommodate snowmobiles. The train does not run on these tracks which are about to fall into the water in many locations. The value here is the corridor and not the deteriorating tracks.
April 16 at 2:13pm · Like · 2

Chuck Goodwin: Very easy to build a separated snowmobile/hiking trail along the tracks.
April 16 at 3:29pm · Like

The Adirondack Rail Trail: Not really. It was supposed to happen between Lake Placid and Saranac Lake but was abandoned due to costs and environmental issues. The UMP (unit management plan) for the corridor also states that that scenario would not be possible in a lot of areas along the corridor. Anyway that can be decided once the UMP is opened up and reviewed. Let's get it done and move on.
April 16 at 4:00pm · Like · 1

Daniel ODonoju: Well, excuse me for having a constructive opinion. I didn't post to tell you what I think you SHOULD do. If you don't want commentary don't post on FB. If you read carefully what I said, the ROW is VERY important. And I am very much in favor of such MIXED use recreational (and environmentally benign) corridors. But multi-use has multiple constituencies, including 14000 train riders apparently. (Avoiding EITHER-OR is usually a good idea, when trying to gain support for low priority budget expenditures.) I also mentioned year-around use which, despite the area's penchant for early and lingering snowfall, precludes snowmobiles, at least during August. Having grown up along such a corridor, I can attest that riding a bike along tracks gets old quickly, as does hiking. I successfully used wood chipping to MAINTAIN trails. Potentially, this could be done BETWEEN the rails, eliminating side trails, additional grading or other expensive projects. I recruited local professional Asplundh-type contractors to DONATE their services (and chips) who were paying dumping fees to dispose of them. NYS Forestry or local jurisdictions along the route might have a similar opportunity- FREE. I also recruited several hundred volunteers to help monitor and maintain the paths. 80 miles in one stretch, is ambitious, and this is more easily done in sections, especially for local use/ benefit. I got US DOT funding (from Federal gas tax revenues) to CONNECT historical, park and recreational sites, because it qualified as an "alternative transportation corridor". Having the tracks there already could improve the odds of such funding grants to local towns. It would not interfere with any train service or wetlands, since no boardwalks would be needed. The train itself could be used to initially distribute the material directly, perhaps using a grain-delivery style railcar, if suitable. It would not necessarily need to be filled in every year, but on a schedule as needed, as would any type of trail. The fact that 14000 people use the train is a constituency to potentially exploit, not dismiss, since they know first hand of the attraction of the route. Spending public millions, without a private component is not money well spent anyhow. But the cost per user might not be that much better with a nature trail. Most likely fewer users , more uses per user. Finally, I have a very good relationship with a few NY State Senators who also have been very supportive of preserving the Adirondacks. Having as many different constituencies as possible being able to use your BASIC idea is what gets projects to happen. Also don't depend exclusively on government; everything is always more expensive that way. Make it a vested interest of as many people, groups and businesses as possible. But that's just my opinion.
April 16 at 5:03pm · Like · 2

The Adirondack Rail Trail: Well we just disagree here and we are trying to have a hard surface trail useable by normal bikes, not mountain bikes. And there is currently no train service on this part of the line. Wood chips are not a realistic alternative for what we propose. Train would be running at the same time as bikes would be using it so a trail would be needed to be built on the side. Sorry. Not going to happen.
April 16 at 5:36pm · Like · 2

Eric Kessin: What percentage of those 14,000 ride from Utica to Theandra? The train will always still run there. So how many people use the train between Lake Placid and Saranac Lake, as opposed to the tens of thousands who would use a bike trail (with locals using it over and over again). How many tourists would NOT visit LP and SL if the train were discontinued? Very few. How many bicyclists WOULD visit LP and SL if they could ride their bikes on a beautiful trail? A TON.
April 16 at 7:17pm · Like · 2

Eric Kessin: Oops. Pressed return by mistake when I needed to edit the message. You get the idea. The train is a big-time net loser for the area.
April 16 at 7:18pm · Like · 1

The Adirondack Rail Trail: The bottom line is that only the train or only the trail is going to get to use this. Let's get the UMP open and get the decision made. The State is wasting time and we are losing money everyday. If the train was so financially successful they would've had the rest to the railroad completed by now. They are barely alive financially right now.
14 hours ago · Like

We now go to commentary from "The ARTA" site; opening comment by Hope Frenette:

Quit your bellyaching. We wouldn't have gotten this far without our supporters. Just ask them not us. There are over 12,000 and counting by the way. Politicians listen to their constituents. Constituents listen to their pocketbooks and their lifestyle.

Following commentary:

Anthony Suzanne: Blossvale? Can we tell them what to do?