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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:50 am 

Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:11 am
Posts: 141
Location: North Carolina USA
I find that the either or nature of the entire political fiasco framing the situation as if the two options could not coexist is dumbfounding as well as any use of FEMA funds to make recreation a priority, especially in light of well recognized shortfalls along the East Coast and in Oklahoma. All of this strikes me as a local comedy of errors. I cannot wrap my head around that bicycling or tourist trains constitute a Federal Emergency. LOL.


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:59 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3030
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
At 6:41 PM Eastern time on June 12, the count is 1,259 trail, 1,745 rail. The rail crowd is getting more New York state signers, perhaps balancing out the relatively high proportion of out-of-state people.

DANG!! Why didn't someone think of this before? Why didn't I think of it before?

https://www.google.com/search?q=railbik ... 4AOP_4CQBQ

http://www.brookspreservation.org/belfa ... ikes.shtml

http://www.railbike.com/buying.htm

http://www.railbike.com/history.htm

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eob/5173746868/

[Fat Albert voice] Hey, hey, hey! This guy's in Tupper Lake! That's on the Adirondack Scenic! Hey, who says you've got to tear up the track?

http://rrbike.freeservers.com/main.htm

http://rrbike.freeservers.com/Railbike_Adventure.htm

http://rrbike.freeservers.com/Railbike_LINKS.htm

I can imagine some difficulties in dispatching a railroad with this sort of traffic on it, and I would imagine some insurance people might have questions, but with some proper thinking, any safety issues should be resolvable.


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:03 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:44 pm
Posts: 30
Ulster county to CMRR 30 day notice;

http://www.dailyfreeman.com/articles/20 ... 434352.txt

Why won't the county release the FEMA funds that were already allocated and are just sitting there so they can repair the damage to the tracks from hurricane Irene? Irene was 2011!


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:27 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2447
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Mehhh... the County's claim is limited by impracticability - Superstorm Sandy really blew down a lot of plans for that railroad.

This for sure though - they need somebody ELSE for a publicist. Wouldn't hurt to have a lobbyist either. Sounds like a lot of people are trying to get the railroad to talk to them, and the railroad is like "ain't talking". That alone can cause ALL this. Seen it before. Just look at Creede, the unwillingness of the nonprofit there to go see Creede and talk about how to resolve their tomahawk anxiety and fractured real estate deeding, got them completely drummed out of town at staggering expense to the town. Oh hell... Pemberton.

'Cept I think this thing is gonna get sorted a heck of a lot faster than Pemberton.


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:33 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3030
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
I've said this before, and I'll say it again--"We don't get no respect, no respect at all!!"

No other organization in any other endeavor would get treated like this. No other group of people who worked this hard for this long would get treated like this.

There is, unfortunately, a certain anti-railroad sentiment in some people. I think it's a combination of thinking trains belong back in the horse and buggy days and should go away, an the idea that some of us never outgrew toy trains. How many of us may remember being chided for being rail enthusiasts in high school? In contrast, we had a recent, serious criminal case in Stuebenville, Oh., that involved a bunch of members of a sports program there, and so, so many people there came to the defense of the criminals. Criminals who not only committed those crimes, but boasted about them on cell phone cameras and such! I think it's because sports is a "holy of holies" in this country; just look at how much larger cities spend on stadiums.

Heritage railroads? We don't count so much. Yet I ask, who--the sports crazies or us--are the more productive, the more thoughtful, perhaps even the more future-looking people, the more visionary?

I'm sorry, I don't have a cure for that. Wish I did.


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:32 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:04 pm
Posts: 63
The window of public opinion is closing rapidly on CMRR, and they are not helping themselves by having board members go "rouge" and speak for the group as a whole in the media.

Its time for some productive transparency at CMRR, and the President or their attorney needs to be the sole voice for the group in the media. Its also time to counter the claims in the complaint by Ulster County:

-Provide evidence of the insurance. That is very easy to do.

-Document ridership numbers, and what that meant for Kingston and Ulster County in tax revenues, etc.

-Hurricane Irene and Superstorm Sandy impeded the work on repairing track the last two years. I'm not a lawyer, but I believe that is called force majure. Seek relief from that portion of the contract.

-Document with FRA records that the track in operation is being maintained to Class I standards.

There is no doubt the Ulster County Executive and the Kingston Mayor "have it in" for CMRR whatever the reason. But the railroad needs to help themselves too. Its not enough just to list the elected officials on their website and hope the public will do the lifting they need to do themselves, and quickly:

-CMRR needs to contact the media with a press release in the New York City and Albany media. There is also a cable news channel in the mid Hudson region that will carry their side of the story.

-Follow the money. Its very easy to find who donated to the campaigns of the Kingston Mayor and the Ulster County Executive who are supporters of the bike trail, or who may own property adjacent to CMRR's right-of-way and stand to benefit from CMRR's demise. Make that public too.

If CMRR does not help themselves, and quickly, they will be shut down.


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:26 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:28 am
Posts: 124
It is always unfortunate when a railroad line is scrapped. The removal of rail lines, abandonment, or disrepair typically means the odds of trainloads of freight or passengers will never roll on a particular right-of-way ever again.

I signed the petition, as I truly believe the CMRR deserves every chance to fulfill their mission. Unfortunately, if you read yesterdays article, the claim and the lease...CMRR most likely isn't living up to their end of the bargain. Hurricanes and tropical storm damage may have impacted the ability for the group to maintain the line properly, but using that as an excuse at this point isn't really effective. Why not have communicated this road block to Ulster County from the beginning. Communication with those that hold the keys...is always a great idea!

The main reason things aren't up to snuff at the CMRR, based on articles and internet entries from CMRR members, is money. Money is what makes ALL of our favorite railroad museums, collections, and excursions run. If someone gave the CMRR $1,000,000 today maybe they could turn things around quickly. Railfans, including myself, must decide where to expend their financial resources. I give to my two favorite organizations that best reflect my interest. I am sure the CMRR is a nice ride, but it doesn't hold any significant historical value to me. I don't care to ride an excursion train pulled by a diesel...I ride a diesel powered train to work everyday. I also don't like crawling along at a snails pace...20/25 mph or better please. I am sure there are others out here that feel the same.

Money makes EVERYTHING possible. It may not be pretty...but it is true.

As usual, this is simply my personal opinion. I truly wish them all the success in the world.

Now...anyone want to write a check for $1M?


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:35 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8353
Location: Baltimore, MD
J3a-614 wrote:
No other organization in any other endeavor would get treated like this. No other group of people who worked this hard for this long would get treated like this.


I would dare to say that "no other organization" would think that they can keep a derelict, shabby, rusty "piece of junk" sitting around in stark public view on "public property" (even if a museum owns it outright, if it's a non-profit and open to the public it's going to be regarded as "public" by too much of the public) and expect to garner sympathy. It's not a "historic classic car in storage," it a pile of rust returning to nature. (I had to deal with this when I hunted down three Kharmann Ghias a guy supposedly had "in storage;" they were so rusted and weedgrown at the back of the outdoor "storage facility" that they collapsed and broke apart as the lot owner tried to drag them out. And amazingly, they were still titled and registered with the state MVA.)

If you don't have a "back 40" or hidden siding to "hide" this stuff on, FIX IT UP and make it look at least somewhat presentable. Even a quick scrape-down and "quick and dirty" paint job on the side of the equipment facing the public can do wonders to your public standing and volunteer morale.


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:19 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2438
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Oportotrolley516 wrote:
Ulster county to CMRR 30 day notice;

http://www.dailyfreeman.com/articles/20 ... 434352.txt


But we had a petition? How could they?

_________________
--
David M. Wilkins

"They Love Him for the Enemies He Has Made!"


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:33 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:44 pm
Posts: 30
Troll.


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:01 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:11 am
Posts: 141
Location: North Carolina USA
I was surprised that they have no liability insurance and I suppose that goes to prove ( once again) to never assume anything and I cannot fathom why they would run anything without it... and without being a legal expert, with the county owning the property, if that's what the CMRR agreed to, I think they have a valid point. In terms of the other issues, I think they could be negotiated. If the allegations are true that CMRR has not come to the table on this and other terms of the lease, then the rail versus trail is a separate issue. Reading the provisions of the lease, it makes one wonder why CMRR did not apprise the owner as a lease holder of any difficulties they had in meeting the terms until the 11th hour if at all..and while I do not regret signing the petition, it seems there's more of a back story to this than I had anticipated. On the other side, then why did the county wait so long to enforce the lease provisions? Both sides seem to have been lax. Where is CMRR's side of the story? Why isn't anyone from CMRR addressing the lease issues publically? Again, it seems like a comedy of errors now..on both sides. I wish them well...but..at this point it does not look very hopeful...it almost seems they snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:17 pm 

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:54 pm
Posts: 1202
Contrary to what is alleged in the document, the CMRR carries liability and workers compensation insurance, and always has. They have been repeatedly sent certificates of proof of insurance and keep losing them. This is a bogus issue.

EH


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:54 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:09 am
Posts: 33
Location: Southeastern PA
As someone with more than 25 years in the graphic design & marketing profession, I think East of Eden has outlined an excellent plan of action to help save the CMRR.

Fingers crossed they are already implementing or planning to do much of what he's suggested.

Also IMHO, their biggest priority at hand is getting a polished spokesperson to communicate a more professional and on-point message/story for the railroad. This needs to happen yesterday.

Bottom line is you've got to take control of your own narrative/public image. Consult with a PR/marketing specialist before it's too late.


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:20 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2447
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Bruce Duensing wrote:
I was surprised that they have no liability insurance and I suppose that goes to prove ( once again) to never assume anything and I cannot fathom why they would run anything without it... and without being a legal expert, with the county owning the property, if that's what the CMRR agreed to, I think they have a valid point.
eehiv wrote:
Contrary to what is alleged in the document, the CMRR carries liability and workers compensation insurance, and always has. They have been repeatedly sent certificates of proof of insurance and keep losing them. This is a bogus issue.

Well, there you go: Just because a lawyer says something in a legal document, Does Not Mean It Is True.

Lying in legal documents is a classic ploy. The right lie can knock somebody's case off balance and get them tangled up in "tilting at your windmill" instead of defeating you. Of course that can backfire on you, if you get caught out. Prenda!

At first blush and on a guess alone, it appears to me the bulk of the county complaints are also dubious, and are not going to survive vigorous argument. Firstoff, courts don't like it when you quietly observe infractions, stacking them up until you have a huge bomb to drop. Counterparty tends to say "This is the first we've heard of ANY of this, give us an honest chance to fix it, there's simply too much here to fix it all in 30 days, you knew that and intended it, see court, this is all trumped up to some ulterior motive, bad faith"... and it does look that way.

Counter-arguments might (just spitballing here) look like: 1-2, doesn't specify what "class 1" means, railroad was significantly under Class I at outset of lease, county has made weedspraying difficult. 1-4, CMRR can hardly be held at fault for the superstorms, since there is no "hell or high water" clause. 5, County readily admits CMRR has been using that facility brazenly, continuously, and exclusively for over 20 years, County never objected, can't now, adverse easement. 6 such claims should have been made timely rather than years after the fact; 7 request is still being processed by volunteers; 8 untrue; 9 lease is not specific as to how public use might conflict with train use. It's all arguable, and my point is you shouldn't just take the other guy's document and declare it to be canon.

Quote:
In terms of the other issues, I think they could be negotiated.

And that is the point of the exercise. From what I can read between the lines, CMRR has "turtled up" and not talking to them, and the goal of this action is to drive them into negotiation. My experience in these matters is "A little negotiation goes a long way".

Railfans as a breed seem to be drawn to "bunker mentality", with "go away, leave us alone, get off our tracks, we're the damn railroad, OUR sandbox". So we see them frantically doing business as usual as if this will all magically go away. Same behaviors we saw in Pemberton and Creede, perceiving themselves as all-powerful because they're the railroad. Same effect: they are gobsmacked when the other guys turn up the heat.

Quote:
it almost seems they snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

Not yet. Get negotiating. Yeah the stuff with the bike path is a significant political factor casting a shadow over all of this, however my impression is that the triggering event was the kerfluffle over the Lion Gardiner move and a variety of ruffled feathers there, which have called into doubt CMRR's stewardship. And the solution is to get talking and remove that doubt. The county guy said it himself, first paragraph in the article, the point of this is to drive them to the negotiating table. So get there.


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 Post subject: Re: Please sign the petition to help save the CMRR
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:48 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:04 pm
Posts: 63
The only other question in this mess is the politically appointed Ulster Railroad Advisory Board. If they were to act as an intermediary or ombudsman between CMRR and the County, they have failed miserably. This seems to be the case, as two members have publicly resigned.

Squatter's rights and some of the other items mentioned in this thread are great counterpoints. Now is the time for CMRR to defend themselves as I have stated in an earlier post. CMRR Counselor Zullig (poor journalism by the Freeman of posting his home address) needs to understand the tactic of fighting fire with fire.

Inaction at this stage is a bad course of action.


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