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 Post subject: Boiler thermal shock
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:57 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:20 pm
Posts: 19
Here is a question for the steam experts. This is about CPR 3512, the lost engine in Slocan Lake in BC that fell off a barge. What I wonder, is what effect would falling into the cold lake water, have on 3512's boiler? We know it didn't explode. Another thing, it was not under a full head of steam when it fell in, as it had at least two hours to lose pressure and cool down a bit since the fire was banked, would this help at all? Would the boiler be salvageable/repairable? Also, I've wondered about the level of damage to a steam locomotive that fell through water over 700 feet, and landed upright on mud.


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 Post subject: Re: Boiler thermal shock
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:10 am 

Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:35 am
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This has been discussed before: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=39712&p=251508

I would not count on anything being straight, square or of consistent curvature or taper.
It's greatest value is in being the topic of legends.


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 Post subject: Re: Boiler thermal shock
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:01 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:20 pm
Posts: 19
What does that mean? You might have to explain further


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 Post subject: Re: Boiler thermal shock
PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:38 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:46 pm
Posts: 69
thebrantfordrailfan wrote:
Here is a question for the steam experts. This is about CPR 3512, the lost engine in Slocan Lake in BC that fell off a barge. What I wonder, is what effect would falling into the cold lake water, have on 3512's boiler? We know it didn't explode. Another thing, it was not under a full head of steam when it fell in, as it had at least two hours to lose pressure and cool down a bit since the fire was banked, would this help at all? Would the boiler be salvageable/repairable? Also, I've wondered about the level of damage to a steam locomotive that fell through water over 700 feet, and landed upright on mud.



I'm no expert but i would assume it would be similar as to how when you put a searing hot frying pan under cold water to create steam. If you do it enough times can it damage or weaken the metal of the pan? yes. If its done once will it more than likely do anything? No.


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 Post subject: Re: Boiler thermal shock
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:57 pm 

Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 5:19 pm
Posts: 510
Location: Bowie, MD
thebrantfordrailfan wrote:
What does that mean? You might have to explain further


I believe he is saying in his opinion it's likely to be pretty messed up; you aren't going to pull it out of the water, steam it up and take off, and that it is better just left where it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Boiler thermal shock
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:51 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1540
I don't know if there is any practical, experience based knowledge of what happens if a hot steam locomotive is suddenly submerged in water. How would the thermal forces act? It seems like they would suddenly lower the steam pressure. Maybe the unevenness of the rapid pressure drop would cause damaging thermal shock to the steel.

It is tempting to regard these "lost locomotives" as a free source of a locomotive to restore to operation. While that has been done, it seems mostly unrealistic due to the extent of cost of restoration plus cost of recovery. While the engine was in operating condition at the time of loss, it probably was damaged to some extent in falling to the lake bottom. If the bottom is hard rock, the damage may be extensive.

Recovery would be expensive not only due to the size of the lifting equipment, but also to the underwater commercial diver work needed to assess and execute the hookup, attach points, number of pieces to lift, etc.

I agree with the idea that preserving the legend may be the most worthwhile cause. But this could also be extended by underwater exploration and imaging. If this were taken to its technical limit, it would graphically illustrate the story and fate of this lost engine. Even this would be a costly challenge if done to perfection. But at least the potentially clear water, in this case, offers the opportunity compared to locomotives that are buried or submerged in turbid water.


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 Post subject: Re: Boiler thermal shock
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:42 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:07 pm
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Location: Leicester, MA.
Where the boiler had water in it and it was doing it's thing at the time? I'm no expert by any means, but the boiler water is the mode of energy transfer. We're not talking about a dry boiler that someone lit a fire in, and adding water caused a flash of steam and energy that blew it to bits. So would it have realistically been at a temperature difference that thermal shock would be a major problem? I'd honestly think hitting the lake bed would cause more damage. Bent frames, etc. But then again I'm no expert on the relationships and physics involved in a locomotive becoming an improptu submarine.

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 Post subject: Re: Boiler thermal shock
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:04 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:20 pm
Posts: 19
From what I understand, the engine didn't fall in under a full head of steam. It's fire was banked, and it had at least two hours for steam pressure to drop in the cold winter weather before it went in, possible to the point where the engine was unable to move under its own power. Don't quote me, but from sources that have seen images of this engine, apparently it landed on a soft and muddy lake bed, and is said to be buried up to the running boards, standing more or less upright on it's driving wheels, the only (visible) damage is said to be to the pilot from what I hear, so I imagine the headlight, bell, etc are all still attached. So, I assume that just from looking at it, it wouldn't appear to be wrecked to any extreme degree. But this is all speculation. I guess we will find out come December when her film premieres.


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