Take a look at "flimsies" for an outstanding article about the trials and tribulations that have led to today's North Carolina Transportation Museum.

Electric City Trolley Museum Association

That is indeed an excellent newspaper article on Spencer, detailing the whole project. There is an additional piece on today's volunteers, found at the link below:

> Take a look at "flimsies" for an
> outstanding article about the trials and
> tribulations that have led to today's North
> Carolina Transportation Museum.


http://salisburypost.townnews.com/display/inn_news/25-NCTM-interpretive%20vols
ryarger@rypn.org

The article details well the very hard physical and political work it took to get this far at Spencer. However, as one whose main interest in railway preservation is roundhouses and shop facilities, I still believe that backshop should be filled with lathes, milling machines and locomotives, not cars, airplanes and boats. Spencer Shops is just about the last intact class 1 RR shop facility extant, at least one that has a credible number of native locomotives extant to populate it. Much of the machinery to re-create its history can still be found, in America and abroad. I've yet to be able to visit there personally, but can still see the possibility for creating a historic site with Williamsburg-like authenticity if the right path were followed. Maybe its because I spent so many years working in a roundhouse myself, but I really think the old heads who labored so hard to get the place going (or their memories if deceased) deserve nothing less than a proper representation of the gritty place where they sweated and toiled. In the RyPN editorials section there is still something I wrote on the subject about three years ago, and I still stand by those views. Please flame away...



ryarger@rypn.org

Amazing, the early plans for the roundhouse complex here in Savannah were nearly identical, a "festival marketplace", turntable removed, made a "water feature" with a big nautilus shell greenhouse looking thing of some sort over it, shops in the stalls of the roundhouse, cables run off the top of the smokestack to support fabric for a greenhouse of some kind, condos, etc. etc.
Thankfully, the developer went bankrupt across the street in the depot before he could damage the roundhouse buildings, and most of what they did in the depot is reversable.

http://www.chsgeorgia.org/railroadshop.cfm
Rudd@cogdellmendrala.com

Bob, I would tend to agree with you except for one thing... those lathes, hammers, milling machines, etc. all went out the door in 1960 to many locations (quite a few to Marion Machine Works, which did a goodly bit of work for the Clinchfield's steam program 1968-79, but that's another story for another time). If the original stuff were still in there or available, I think the case could be made. Dragging in a bunch of machines from a lot of sources might delight you, but probably won't do much to attract many visitors or enlighen them as to the work that went on there.

The Back Shop will have a section devoted to rail. The last plans I saw called for an Amtrak F40 (are you reading, Sandy Mitchell?!), a small steam engine, a driving wheel lathe and the positioning of one of the overhead cranes to reflect the work. There's also the potential for a passenger car that would allow folks to "ride" it in place, but the car has not been determined yet.

The whole plan all along has been to create a total transportation museum in a vacant railroad shop building.

Between the tracks and rolling stock on the grounds and the 37-stall Roundhouse, the railroad will always be front and center at NCTM.

Wrinnbo@aol.com

"I still believe that backshop should be filled with lathes, milling machines and locomotives...
Much of the machinery to re-create its history can still be found... but can still see the possibility for creating a historic site with Williamsburg-like authenticity if the right path were followed....I really think the old heads who labored so hard to get the place going (or their memories if deceased) deserve nothing less than a proper representation of the gritty place where they sweated and toiled."

The East Broad Top shop complex IS still intact, machines (all from the turn of the century), lcomotive fleet and all. IMO it would be more cost effective to fix up THOSE buildings and build your "williamsburg" THERE than to bring in a hodgepodge of non-original stuff to Spencer. Of course the fact that it is privately owned complicates donating the $$$ to do it a bit, but it COULD be done.
Just my 2c

The EBT complex certainly is worth saving, and probably will be eventually. Spencer is just about the last class one standard gauge shop facility left, however. Wouldn't backshop machinery and Southern Railway locomotives be more appropriate than airplanes, cars and boats? One might not be able to find the exact machines that were once found there, but I'll bet you could come pretty close, expecially if a shop inventory were found.

The key here is that it is a historic site, which should be treated differently than other railroad "attractions" that are newly-created. Historic sites should be restored with as much authenticity as possible, much like Williamsburg.



ryarger@rypn.org

> The EBT complex certainly is worth saving,
> and probably will be eventually. Spencer is
> just about the last class one standard gauge
> shop facility left, however.

Ain't ya conveniently forgetting the Juniata Shops in Altoona, to name only one place? Or, for that matter, Wilmington Shops? There's still a bit of Renovo left......... ditto Reading....... and that's just PRR and Reading, mind you.......

lner4472@bcpl.net

Those airplanes, cars, and boats may be viewed as detrimental, but what would Spencer do without them? Let's face it, there's a small percentage out there who are attracted just to rail equipment. Throwing some other things into the mix (e.g. boats, airplaces, etc.) does much to broaden both the funding base and patronage base. Not to mention the fact that with the other attractions, Spencer will be able to pull in some nontraditional (i.e., nonrailroad orientated) patrons. This will have the net effect of exposing them to our world. Could such a massive complex be funded and patronized with out the other "stuff"?

God Bless,
Gerald W. Kopiasz, President
Heartland Railroad Historical Society

> The EBT complex certainly is worth saving,
> and probably will be eventually. Spencer is
> just about the last class one standard gauge
> shop facility left, however. Wouldn't
> backshop machinery and Southern Railway
> locomotives be more appropriate than
> airplanes, cars and boats? One might not be
> able to find the exact machines that were
> once found there, but I'll bet you could
> come pretty close, expecially if a shop
> inventory were found.

> The key here is that it is a historic site,
> which should be treated differently than
> other railroad "attractions" that
> are newly-created. Historic sites should be
> restored with as much authenticity as
> possible, much like Williamsburg.


hrrhs@aol.com

"The key here is that it is a historic site, which should be treated differently than other railroad "attractions" that are newly-created. Historic sites should be restored with as much authenticity as possible, much like Williamsburg.

Just in case you haven't noticed, the EBT IS a national historic landmark

In case you haven't actually been there lately... if a major stabilization program doesn't occur in Rockhill VERY soon, there may be no buildings still standing left to save "eventually". (yes I know the ownits no real secret they could really use MUCH more dollars and manpower)

The shop complex needs: roof siding floor window AND foundation work. If it could be started by say -- 1979 it might not come too soon.

There were discussions here, sometimes heated, about replacing the "historic fabric" of locomotives making them nearly useless for real museum purposes. What would a bunch of non original machines stuck into such a "historic" building be?

OTOH, I guess that since a trundling 3 foot mike just isn't NEARLY as flashy and awe inspiring as a mainline northern at 70mph,anyway... then the EBT really SHOULD just sit there and quietly rust while waiting for those leftover scraps of support that may never come, or at least not NEAR enough or in time.

Please note; my intent here is NOT to start a flame war, but merely to point out that if our goal is railway PRESERVATION then there may be many just as worthy, and much more time critical projects than getting the boats out of Spenser shops. Sometimes I really wish we had a national preservation program like so many other countries

Who is the director/site administrator and curator at Spencer Shops? It's funny, I know Jim Wrinn and John Bechtel, but have never known who "ran" the site in the front offices.

K.R. Bell

> In case you haven't actually been there
> lately... if a major stabilization program
> doesn't occur in Rockhill VERY soon, there
> may be no buildings still standing left to
> save "eventually". (yes I know the
> ownits no real secret they could really use
> MUCH more dollars and manpower)

> The shop complex needs: roof siding floor
> window AND foundation work. If it could be
> started by say -- 1979 it might not come too
> soon.

> There were discussions here, sometimes
> heated, about replacing the "historic
> fabric" of locomotives making them
> nearly useless for real museum purposes.
> What would a bunch of non original machines
> stuck into such a "historic"
> building be?

> OTOH, I guess that since a trundling 3 foot
> mike just isn't NEARLY as flashy and awe
> inspiring as a mainline northern at
> 70mph,anyway... then the EBT really SHOULD
> just sit there and quietly rust while
> waiting for those leftover scraps of support
> that may never come, or at least not NEAR
> enough or in time.

> Please note; my intent here is NOT to start
> a flame war, but merely to point out that if
> our goal is railway PRESERVATION then there
> may be many just as worthy, and much more
> time critical projects than getting the
> boats out of Spenser shops. Sometimes I
> really wish we had a national preservation
> program like so many other countries


http://rrmuseumpa.org

Well, Gerald, consider: North Carolina has what may be the most important historic site in the world for aeronautical interpretation - The place where Orville and Wilbur Wright flew their first successful flight. Also, in Wilmington the battleship North Carolina could center a marine based interpretive museum. Some say the Roanoke colony actually landed in NC? Speaking automotively, Charlotte Motor Speedway might be a good place for cars and trucks since Charlotte was historically a crossroads not as intimately involved with railroading as Spencer.

But that isn't what happened. It was politically expedient and economically imperative for the state to put all those special interest eggs in that basket more than two decades ago.

While it may be interesting from an academic POV to consider what might have been, what is there and will be there is mighty impressive.

Comparing Spencer Shops to EBT is apples and asparagus. EBT is, in its context, a social and economic microcosm. Spencer is alongside a railroad but it hasn't been an active vital part of its surroundings for a very long time. It has more in common with Steamtown than EBT.

And, yes, much of the texture provided by the soot and cinders was removed when the structures were restored. You could peform surgery in the roundhouse now. That was one by product of the environmental requirements of the state funded project. Compromises like this are part of the cost of doing business we have created within our system of government.

Final note - I suppose the Savannah Shops are still a secret kept far too well. The antebellum shops site is vest pocket in size compared to Spencer or Steamtown but a good case could be made that it is architecturally more important and at least as complete if not moreso. Plans are in the works now to acquire adjacent railroad land and reconnect to the railroad system through the port.

Dave



irondave@bellsouth.net

Elizabeth Smith is our executive diretor. Curatorial work is under the umbrella of historic sites group (20-some different locations statewide), but some restructuring in the last year or two has John Mercer, who is on site at Spencer, doing more of that work.



http://nctrans.org
Wrinnbo@aol.com

> Ain't ya conveniently forgetting the Juniata
> Shops in Altoona, to name only one place?
> Or, for that matter, Wilmington Shops?
> There's still a bit of Renovo left.........
> ditto Reading....... and that's just PRR and
> Reading, mind you.......

Another that is very much intact is the Big Four's Beech Grove facility now owned by Amtrak.

JK

JamesKissinger@hotmail.com