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 Post subject: Re: Trash in Firebox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:37 am 

Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:57 am
Posts: 151
robertmacdowell wrote:
Well if you're exhaling lead, chromium or arsenides, you really might want to see a doctor!


I like you.

He's right, guys. Don't ignore or downplay talk of pollutants or recycling because you are afraid of sounding like one of them damn, dirty hippes!


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 Post subject: Re: Trash in Firebox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:56 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5254
Location: southeastern USA
Not in the least.... I do recycle, but there's always a cost, I exhale a lot more CO2 than I inhale.... which could be considered pollution. When I fill my recycling bin, a truck picks it up separately from the truck that picks up my trash for the landfill, which burns diesel, which pollutes....... takes it to a sorting and repackaging center, which uses energy from coal fired power plants, ditto. It just goes on and on into long chains of interaction.

I was born in Pittsburgh in an era when the air was visible, and heavy metals abounded. Many of my family made a very good living in the coal and steel businesses or as merchants serving them. We don;t do that any longer, of course. Now we don't have good paying jobs or an industrial sector. Which situation is worse?

dave

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"Techies never minded eating bits and jots of their work. They were grit and grease inside and out and could turn a pile of junk into a magical kingdom."

Andrea Hairston


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 Post subject: Re: Trash in Firebox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:02 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:05 am
Posts: 399
Dave wrote:
Which situation is worse?


Last fall, China held a summit with all the Latin and South American countries to announce that in order to save the planet, China would export their heavy coal fired smoke stack industries to the lower Americas where the steel mills would be fired by bio-fuels like ethanol from sugarcane. Only a spec of this China front page story is found in a western media search.

What I have never seen in the media is that CO2 is 100% BIODEGRADABLE. CO2 + Chlorophyll + sunlight = O2 + pure carbon. The burn hydrogen solution however, creates WATER that never degrades and creates water vapor (clouds). A really good cloud can block 50% of the sun energy from hitting the solar panels or the Chlorophyll.


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 Post subject: Re: Trash in Firebox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:37 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:06 pm
Posts: 122
robertmacdowell wrote:
Dave wrote:
.... but apart from those of us that burn waste crankcase oil, which is a form of recycling in itself....

no, it's a form of pollution.


Seriously?? Then ANYTHING you burn in a steam locomotive can be considered "a form of pollution."

Anything used to power any vehicle on the PLANET, let alone steam locomotives, is "a form of pollution." This includes the electricity to power your electric car.

If not reused (recycled) in such a manner, what would you propose be done with the hundreds of thousands of gallons of waste crankcase oil that steam locomotives burn today?

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 Post subject: Re: Trash in Firebox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:06 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5254
Location: southeastern USA
I think the question is more one of reducing output by cleaner and more complete burning, and by making better, more efficient use of the resulting steam. I did propose we add a waste oil cleaning program for the 110 restoration, along with improved combustion engineering and mechanical retrofits to gain in efficiency and reduce undesirable output through the stack. We don't seem to be headed in this direction.

dave

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"Techies never minded eating bits and jots of their work. They were grit and grease inside and out and could turn a pile of junk into a magical kingdom."

Andrea Hairston


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 Post subject: Re: Trash in Firebox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:51 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 2431
Steve DeGaetano wrote:

Anything used to power any vehicle on the PLANET, let alone steam locomotives, is "a form of pollution." This includes the electricity to power your electric car.



I've always thought "Zero Emission Vehicles" should really be labelled "Zero LOCAL Emission" instead.

That said, some small portion of them are truly pollution free, as there is a significant amount of hydroelectric power in use in the Pacific Northwest. I suppose you could say that even hydro plants products some pollution, especially if you consider the construction of the dam etc. but it's very small compared to what is generated.

Steve DeGaetano wrote:


If not reused (recycled) in such a manner, what would you propose be done with the hundreds of thousands of gallons of waste crankcase oil that steam locomotives burn today?


If you used "re-refined" or "purified" waste oil, doesn't that remove many of the harmful elements? How does it compare to say, diesel fuel? Also, any idea how many operators are using recycled oil that has been processed in some manner versus raw product? Even if you don't care about the pollution aspects, the idea of encountering radiator fluid, hydraulic fluid or just plain water in the recycle oil is enough to discourage you. I've seen all three, made it home by burning old ties one trip to keep the air pump working when the radiator fluid put out the fire very quickly and well.

Posted using recycled electrons.


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 Post subject: Re: Trash in Firebox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:22 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1241
Location: Strasburg, PA
robertmacdowell wrote:
Used motor oil contains heavy toxic metals and other nasties picked up from the innards of the engine. You shouldn't even use it to lube switch points because it will turn the dirt under the switch into "dirty dirt" that will require disposal in a special landfill if tou are caught.

It would be interesting to quantify the typical amount of heavy metals in the thousand gallons of used motor oil burned in a day's operation vs. the amount in the pint (or quart) of lube oil and grease that drops on the ground every day the engine runs, carrying lead, tin, copper, zinc, and all of the other constituents of its rapidly wearing out bearing surfaces. I wouldn't surprised either way.

Then I look at the slimy oil spot in the front center of each spot in any given parking lot, and think, "Well maybe steam engines aren't so bad after all."

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 Post subject: Re: Trash in Firebox
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:24 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2447
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Steve DeGaetano wrote:
robertmacdowell wrote:
Dave wrote:
.... but apart from those of us that burn waste crankcase oil, which is a form of recycling in itself....

no, it's a form of pollution.


Seriously?? Then ANYTHING you burn in a steam locomotive can be considered "a form of pollution."

I'm saying- used motor oil has specific pollutants (typically heavy metals) that you do not want to be caught emitting into the atmosphere, and any county guy is going to know enough about that to nail you good and plenty. Particularly heavy metals. And oil reprocessers are well equipped to separate out the heavies and turn all of it into saleable feedstocks.

Those feedstocks would be perfectly acceptable steamer fuel.

Now if you want to DIY that separation (leaving you with toxics not useful to you), then I discussed ways to do that.

Quote:
Anything used to power any vehicle on the PLANET, let alone steam locomotives, is "a form of pollution." This includes the electricity to power your electric car.

The old freshman debate card of "all bad is equal bad, therefore my bad is OK." Doesn't hold up to scrutiny.


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 Post subject: Re: Trash in Firebox
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:32 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:43 am
Posts: 426
Location: Floyd, AR
M Austin wrote:
What I have never seen in the media is that CO2 is 100% BIODEGRADABLE. CO2 + Chlorophyll + sunlight = O2 + pure carbon. The burn hydrogen solution however, creates WATER that never degrades and creates water vapor (clouds). A really good cloud can block 50% of the sun energy from hitting the solar panels or the Chlorophyll.


Water is quite 'biodegradable' as it's used in the plant along with the CO2 to produce 'plant matter' whatever that plant might be, and oxygen.

SO, here's some science most people get wrong...

For one, rain forests (or any forest) don't produce hardly any oxygen at all. Plants MAKE oxygen to synthesize raw materials, sugars, etc. But then they USE oxygen to 'metabolize' those sugars as part of their life cycle. When something eats the plant, oxygen is used to metabolize the plant matter. Whats left over rots, using oxygen to decompose. Burned plant matter needs oxygen. And when the plant is dead and gone, the plant made 0% oxygen, net. YOUR oxygen comes from the plants you directly, or indirectly eat. (I suppose if someone here lives on bananas and mangoes, maybe all their air DOES come from the rain forest, lol) Yes, the farmer is your #1 source of breathing air.

Pop quiz-What is the #1 ingredient by weight, of a tree?

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Robert Longhofer,
Board Member, Cotton Belt Rail Historical Society, Arkansas Railroad Museum, steam engine SSW819.
Any information or opinions I express are my own, and are not the views of the CBRHS or anyone else, unless explicitly stated otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: Trash in Firebox
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:58 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2096
Location: Northern Illinois
Likely water.

Do I get a prize?

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 Post subject: Re: Trash in Firebox
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:06 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:34 pm
Posts: 25
robertmacdowell, I suggest you read up on the EPA regs on used oil recycling. Burning used crankcase for heat recovery is one of the very few EPA approved methods for recycling it. No pretreatment necessary,right from the crankcase to the burner. Ten's of thousands the shops use waste oil burners with no treatment and not one has to the best of my knowledge ever been issued a fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Trash in Firebox
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:02 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:30 pm
Posts: 130
I have used glass to glaze the fire brick in oil burning locomotives. One would crush the glass, typically green, iron bearing glass like coke bottles, sprinkle it liberally upon the bricks and fire normally. The glass melts and fuses to the bricks thus glazing them and I would like to imagine prolonging their life. How hard and how frequently the boiler is fired would dictate how often the glass is renewed.

CCdW


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 Post subject: Re: Trash in Firebox
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:09 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:30 pm
Posts: 130
Regarding burning waste oil, there is a competitive business in the greater Reno, Nevada area that gathers used oil regardless of the source and resells it as boiler fuel to power generating plants. Seems that the guys wouldn't do it if it were illegal. Or not for the last 16 years that I know of. Of course the wind blows form west to east here so we don't have to suffer the paranoid opinions of California and the citizens of Utah don't appear to mind.

CCdW


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 Post subject: Re: Trash in Firebox
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:47 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1241
Location: Strasburg, PA
CCDW wrote:
Of course the wind blows form west to east here so we don't have to suffer the paranoid opinions of California and the citizens of Utah don't appear to mind.

That make sense, it only causes cancer in California...

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C. S. Forester

Strasburg Rail Road Mechanical Department


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 Post subject: Re: Trash in Firebox
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:02 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
Posts: 728
Location: Tucson, Arizona
When I was at TVRM, anything that was combustible that would fit through the firebox opening could and did go in.

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