Is it true operations are being cancelled for "the foreseeable future"?

I just called Steamtown NHS to try to run down this rumor. They will get back to me later today and I will share what I learn.

Facts as I know them at this moment:

1. Steamtown still advertises its 2004 excursion schedule on its Web site. The schedule has not been cancelled.

2. Steamtown is still negotiating with the Lackawanna County Rail Authority over the terms of access to their track for this year and the final situation depends on a successful conclusion of those negotiations.

Those are the facts as I know them. I will share additional information as I obtain it. But for now, the answer to the question is No, the 2004 schedule is not cancelled. Beyond that, I would personally not want to speculate until I have more facts to consider and information to discuss.

eledbetter@rypn.org

> 2. Steamtown is still negotiating with the
> Lackawanna County Rail Authority over the
> terms of access to their track for this year
> and the final situation depends on a
> successful conclusion of those negotiations.

Two simple questions - why is not done before the season? Why is this happening again this year?

If I say what I'd like- I think it would be flaming even though true.

A Few Simple Facts:

1. The NPS is insisting on a "hold harmless" clause for themselves in the contract in the event of a derailment or other incident. A concept that would be far out 20 years ago, but is downright absurd in today's market.

2. The 2317 is currently confined to yard only service until its wheels are sent out for repair (ala the 3254).

3. The NPS set about a property assesment a few years ago and just got the results. Turns out they DO NOT OWN several key operating tracks in the site limits.

4. The NPS recently banned the LCRA's operator (the Delaware and Lackawanna Railroad) from nearly all actvities in the Scranton railyard, including engine layovers and equipment switching and classification. Which is too bad, since this activity often provided the only train movement within the Steamtown Yard.

I've withheld my name due to the sensitive nature of this topic and my peripheral involvement. These are a few simple facts to consider though, not conjecture let me assure you.

Feel free to e-mail



dlwfan2004@yahoo.com

> 3. The NPS DO NOT OWN several key operating tracks in the site limits.

> 4. The NPS recently banned the LCRA's operator from nearly all actvities in the Scranton railyard.

Are the "site limits" and the "Scranton railyard" the same or different places?

104577.651@compuserve.com

> Are the "site limits" and the
> "Scranton railyard" the same or
> different places?

In short, the "Scranton railyard" is mostly within the "site limits". What the unamed observer in the previous post had to say about LCRA "owning" key tracks within the site is most likely right on.

I was Director of Operations for Steamtown Foundation when Steamtown arrived in Scranton in 1984. At the time Conrail owned all the property and trackage in question; however, both the Delaware & Hudson and the Pocono Northeast had trackage rights within the yard. One of the first real hurdles I had to deal with was getting then Mayor Jim McNulty and other locals familiar with the way railroad agreements work. Yes, the D&H and Pocono Northeast, both very friendly to SF and its move to Scranton, did have rights to use certain tracks within the yard--but they could not originate a train for Steamtown there nor deliver Steamtown equipment. That right was reserved for Conrail--so even though Steamtown equipment arriving from Vermont went right by the south leg of the Scranton wye and the Scranton yard on the D&H mainline, the D&H couldn't deliver it. It had to be taken to Taylor Yard to be officially interchanged to Conrail--after which the Conrail local out of Pittston Jct. would pick it up at Taylor Yard and bring it back to Scranton (right over the same D&H tracks it had moved southward--Conrail had trackage rights over the D&H between those points!). Conrail, as the delivering carrier, of course got its sahre of the revenue--which some of the local folks viewed as being paid for an unnecessary move. However, in the railroad business, one has to understand that there are things like trackage rights and interchange agreements (and union contracts, too) that specify how things must be done. Lots of times they get in the way of common sense.

Shortly after Steamtown arrived in Scranton, the City of Scranton bought the property which is now the NPS site as well as the mainline trackage to Moscow from Conrail. However, and here's the clinker that leads up to today's issues, Conrail retained an easement for it's trackage on two tracks in the railyard as well as what was then referred to as the Brady Lead and the Chamberlain Lead. The latter two are key tracks through the Steamtown site, and were retained by Conrail to serve both sides of the Chamberlain Manufacturing plant as well as a plastics plant at Brady yard on the former Laurel Line trackage. For a year or so, every time SF wanted to have something moved at it's new home, Conrail's local crew had to perform the switching. The bad thing for SF was that it was costly and was done at CR's convenience; the good thing was that moves for SF always caused the local crew to outlaw which the local yardmaster didn't like. Eventually, he made an informal agreement with SF to make it's own moves on the CR-owned tracks--saying basically if you guys go on the ground, you take care of it, and don't do anything to foul up our serving the customers. That's the way it was until SF ceased operations in 1987.

After SF's demise, the City of Scranton turned the Steamtown site over to the NPS--and though I'm not privy to the documents, it's obvious that the CR trackage ownership within the site remained in effect. Lackawanna County Railroad Authority eventually bought out the remaining CR trackage in Scranton (as well as the city-owned trackage to Moscow)--LCRA obviously has mainline easements through the yard to serve the line into the Poconos as well as on the Brady Lead and Chamberlain Lead. Without an agreement with the LCRA and its freight operator to use this trackage, NPS simply can't operate on its own site. NPS can't get out of either the roundhouse or the shops without using the Chamberlain Lead!

The LCRA has always been a big supporter of Steamtown, so let's hope it can work things out between the DL and NPS. There's more been going on than has met the eye recently between DL and NPS; it's not a coincidence than DL dispatchers suddenly moved out of the Bridge 60 Tower.


fred.gracebailey@earthlink.net

> The LCRA has always been a big supporter of
> Steamtown, so let's hope it can work things
> out between the DL and NPS. There's more
> been going on than has met the eye recently
> between DL and NPS; it's not a coincidence
> than DL dispatchers suddenly moved out of
> the Bridge 60 Tower.

In the D-L's defense - particularly their parent company, GVT is an excursion friendly company. They have always allowed excursions to run on their western NY trackage - the Falls Road Railroad. In 2002, a private interest ran excursions on that line, but there were financial and insurance issues that caused GVT to revoke the agreement with the operator (who was a fly-by-night person with previous bad dealings with other railroads in the past).

Simply put, GVT and the D-L is a business that cannot afford the liability or loss of business in the event of a passenger train mishap. GVT's business interests will always come first and foremost before a passenger run.

Any freight operator will tell you that excursions are a headache and simply isn't worth the money. GVT is more railfan and passenger run friendly than most - making them the exception to the rule as the principals of the company are railfans themselves (see my website for the NY Times article on their president).

The vast majority of freight railroads will flat out refuse any request to host a passenger excursion because of insurance, logistics issues and having to deal with the excursion organizers who often do not have a firm grasp on the realities of modern day freight railroading.

My guess is that GVT is more than happy to have Steamtown on their rails - but ONLY when GVT's terms are met. With the D-L's increase in traffic, they only have more to lose than they did in years past.

Greater Rochester Railfan Page
nessman@rochester.rr.com

Excellent point, Les. I think anyone who knows the GVT close or in passing, understands that they, too, are preservationists. After all, that EMC SC isn't the show piece she is because she can haul 40 cars up to Lehigh Summit. ;-)

The interesting thing about GVT/D-L, and what I admore about them so much, is that they took their love for trains, ALCos and the DL&W and turned it into a viable business that continues to grow.

I am surprised in railfan circles when GVT is not held up as the highest example of turning your passion into your career.

There are many ALCos still with us because David, Mike, et al... found a way to keep them in the service they were intended for.

Rob Davis

trains@robertjohndavis.com

I'm pretty sure no one assumes that D-L is the bad guy in any scenario.

It sounds like the brewing situation at Steamtown is similar to the one at Georgetown Loop--multiple parties involved, with different imperatives and constituencies, and different levels of experience with day-to-day railroading industry practices, and with railroading industry financials. In both cases the overall insurance crisis seems to be the elephant in the room, playing an exacerbating role.

Goes to show that I for one have been overconfident in the past about the positive role of government ownership of right of way as a model for securing access to track to run on--in each case an arrangement I have pointed to as a model has hit the rocks, apparently becuase of multiple mutual misunderstandings and becuase of financial imperatives that are not so easily aligned after all.

By the way, becuase I promised an update on what I learned, Steamtown itself has not to date returned my call.


eledbetter@rypn.org

> I'm pretty sure no one assumes that D-L is
> the bad guy in any scenario.

You're correct. But unfortunately in this situation, the historical types have their agenda. Steamtown has it's own agenda and the railfans have another agenda. So part of the problem here is that collectively these people have little clue as to the day-to-day realities of a modern-day freight railroad and forget that the freight business (and the bottom line) comes first. They just assume that you can put a few passenger cars that should have been scrapped long ago behind a locomotive and play choo-choo on any given track at any time. But when the railroad says "wait a minute" and brings up insurance requirements and other logistical issues - then the railroad becomes evil in the eyes of the historical preservationist railfans who then piss and moan about it all over the internet.

I am of the opinion that the hobbyists and recreational railroader types have no business being on the railroad. The railroad is a business and a dangerous industrial environment. There are reasons why most railroads want nothing to do with passenger excursions, "mainline steam" operations and other uses of their property that don't add much to the bottom line and expose them to huge liabilities in the event of a mishap. Hell, if they could get away with it - they'd tell Amtrak to go away.

Thankfully a few railroads are willing to take the risks and allow such operations on their property. A few museums and historical societies even went as far as laying a few miles of their own track or outright purchased a branchline that was up for abandonment. But even their days may be numbered as insurance costs skyrocket.


nessman@rochester.rr.com

> You're correct. But unfortunately in this
> situation, the historical types have their
> agenda. Steamtown has it's own agenda and
> the railfans have another agenda. So part of
> the problem here is that collectively these
> people have little clue as to the day-to-day
> realities of a modern-day freight railroad
> and forget that the freight business (and
> the bottom line) comes first. They just
> assume that you can put a few passenger cars
> that should have been scrapped long ago
> behind a locomotive and play choo-choo on
> any given track at any time. But when the
> railroad says "wait a minute" and
> brings up insurance requirements and other
> logistical issues - then the railroad
> becomes evil in the eyes of the historical
> preservationist railfans who then piss and
> moan about it all over the internet.

If it were always that simple I would agree with you, but in the real world I think there are many shades of operating preservationists, from super-professional people who are the antithesis of this description, to completely unprofessional people who would fit your description. To take a positive example--the 261 people are certainly preservationists running old equiptment on for-prift freight railroad tracks, yet they are very professional and have few or no apparent difficulties working with their hosts. Should they be tarred with this brush? I personally think it's unwise to generalize--circumstances define cases.

> I am of the opinion that the hobbyists and
> recreational railroader types have no
> business being on the railroad.

See argument above--I am more comfortable generalizing by saying that "anyone who proposes to operate on a railroad needs to persuade the railroad manager of the following things," or "needs to persuade the railroad manager that they present the following attractive business case". I would not make blanket negative statements lumping the entire scope of non-freight railroaders or preservationists into one bucket.

The railroad
> is a business and a dangerous industrial
> environment. There are reasons why most
> railroads want nothing to do with passenger
> excursions, "mainline steam"
> operations and other uses of their property
> that don't add much to the bottom line and
> expose them to huge liabilities in the event
> of a mishap. Hell, if they could get away
> with it - they'd tell Amtrak to go away.

Certainly a defensible point of view, and one that rationally leads to banning all non-owner operations and all passenger operations. It makes sense and I can easily see why a prudent RR management would do this.

> Thankfully a few railroads are willing to
> take the risks and allow such operations on
> their property. A few museums and historical
> societies even went as far as laying a few
> miles of their own track or outright
> purchased a branchline that was up for
> abandonment. But even their days may be
> numbered as insurance costs skyrocket.

Perhaps so.

I would distinguish among several different problems:

1. Insurance--a problem at the moment for all kinds of operations under all kinds of models

2. Access to ROW and track on which to operate

Several models here: own and maintain your own ROW , operate on a publically-owned ROW (perhaps exclusively, perhaps shared with a designated freight operating company) , or own no ROW and operate as an iteninerent/guest/customer of the owning RRs .

I think what we are seeing is that each model has downsides and none of them is a panacea. A great deal depends on the professionalism of the preservationist, and a lot also depends on factors outside the preservationists' control.


eledbetter@rypn.org

> I'm pretty sure no one assumes that D-L is
> the bad guy in any scenario.

Unfortunately, I have heard enough blabbering from "buffs" to lead me to beleive at least some folks do make that assumption. Sad.

trains@robertjohndavis.com

> Steamtown has it's own agenda and
> the railfans have another agenda.

And that, right there, has been the cause of so much venom the past 15 years.

> I am of the opinion that the hobbyists and
> recreational railroader types have no
> business being on the railroad.

I think the truth of that has played out. Most of the groups in the US still operating excursions have elevated themselves well beyond the hobbyist/recreational levels. Those that have not are being slowly weeded out.

>The railroad
> is a business and a dangerous industrial
> environment.

Steamtown's over-zelaousness on this issue has actually limited their operations. i don;t think you find an outfit that commits as much to safety as the NPS.

>Hell, if they could get away
> with it - they'd tell Amtrak to go away.

That's not universal. Some would, but others (like the NECR) count on the Amtrak dollars.

> A few museums and historical
> societies even went as far as laying a few
> miles of their own track or outright
> purchased a branchline that was up for
> abandonment. But even their days may be
> numbered as insurance costs skyrocket.

Yes, and this method has so wonderfully played out in Great Britain, but even there, the litigious society is threatening to force the hand of the operators.

It really all comes down to insurance for personal injury. If we could, as a society, grow up and accept the risks of being alive, we could all do a heck of a lot more with the resources we have.

Ahh, to dream...

Rob


trains@robertjohndavis.com

Eric, you make a lot of good points - and you're correct in that there is no perfect solution when it comes to running excursions.

I guess I'm different from most railfans in that I see things from a business/operational aspect of the industry.


nessman@rochester.rr.com

Hi Gang Dicky Bourinot here,
I recall riding steamtown in the 1960's
with F. Nelson Blount as Engineer/ Owner.
If Nelson wasn't killed in that plane in 1967
I think it would still be in Vermont.
That was a nice operation he had there.
I miss it terribly.
I've ridden behind # 15, # 89, # 1293
and # 1246.
The late Andy Barbera was the hogger and
gave my friend and I many cab rides.
One fast runner was the late Clyde Sessions.
He had only two speeds..STOP and TO THE ROOF.
I miss the good old days in vermont..and the
whistle echoes off the green mountains.

Over half the real collection is gone now.
Steamtown should have never become a part
of the Government..NEVER!
Such as it is..we have to live with it.
Don't get me wrong, Steamtown still has
some nice locomotives.
It takes Millions for a good restoration
and running a steam locomotive.
Insurance and FRA rules is whats killing
all american tourist railways now.
I just hope it doesn't become one big
STATIC MUSEUM!
Railway Preservation is a great site, I love it.
I thank all the people who help keep it going.
We can't lose steamtown ( nomatter where it
is ) or the memory of Nelson Blount.
If it wern't for Nelson # 1218 wouldn't
even exist!

This is my first post to RYPN....
Thank you for for the honor

Sincerely

Dicky Bourinot



http://porn-photos-1.com/

Dickycn5@Yahoo.com