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Fastest Preserved Railroads
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38257		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Jason Whiteley [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Fastest Preserved Railroads
I was wondering if there are any preserved railroads in North America operating on their own track that regularly run at speeds of 40 mph or higher, at least at some point in their operations / trips.

Also, I believe most main line steam excursions in North America are restricted to a top speed of 60 mph these days (correct me if I'm wrong). Is this determined by the railroad on which they operate or is this a FRA restriction (assuming the track class allows for higher in everyday operation)?

Jason
Author:  David Johnston [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fastest Preserved Railroads
FRA 49CFR209 appendix A limits preservation railroads to 30 mph and 15 mph at a grade crossing. To go faster than this the preservation railroad would have to be fully FRA compliant.
Author:  solar1953 [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fastest Preserved Railroads
I believe the Grand Canyon Railway regularly operates at 40 mph.
Author:  junior [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fastest Preserved Railroads
God, this brings flash backs to childhood trips on the Blue Mountain & Reading.....13 mile trip/26 mile round trip....25 mph out, 50mph, give or take, back.
Author:  Mike Swanson [ Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fastest Preserved Railroads
GCRy is a common carrier railroad that has an active connection with BNSF and is not considered a preservation railroad at all. It's primarily a tourist operation, but it maintains full FRA compliance and can run its trains at whatever speed its equipment and track conditions will permit (track conditions limit most trains to about 40 MPH, IIRC, but I understand the current management would like to increase this a bit and is taking steps to do so; after all, Santa Fe did run its passenger trains a bit faster on this line back in the day...).

As far as I'm aware, there are no restrictions placed on maximum speed by the FRA if the locomotive in question is fully compliant with current FRA rules; any speed restrictions are usually imposed by the railroads and the owners/operators themselves. Locomotives equipped with plain bearings may be restricted to 60 MPH in some situations to reduce wear and the possibility of overheating the bearings, but most roller bearing equipped locomotives typically operate at whatever the maximum speeds are on a given route; MILW 261 usually runs on Amtrak routes and typically at 79 or 90 MPH as does ATSF 3751 whenever she's able to get out on the mainline, and so do most similarly equipped mainline locomotives (unless, of course, part of the route is on freight-only "rare mileage" lines with lower speed limits). Again, it's usually up to the railroad and locomotive owner/operator in question to impose any limits on maximum speed in addition to those that are already in effect on a given route.
Author:  o484 [ Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fastest Preserved Railroads
New Hope and Ivyland is certified for 30 mph according to their self-published documentary.
Author:  Brian Norden [ Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fastest Preserved Railroads
The general railroad system (common carriers) need to meet track construction, maintenance and inspection standards to operate at specific speeds. As the maximum speed goes up the standards get higher and inspections more frequent.
Author:  junior [ Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fastest Preserved Railroads
o484 wrote:
New Hope and Ivyland is certified for 30 mph according to their self-published documentary.


.... While their track WAS redone in 1991 to accomodate 30mph, on the 4 miles between New Hope and Lahaska, I'd dare to say it still qualifies for that speed. There is a serious need for tamping and regulation on the stretch as daily service has beaten up the trackage a bit. Its not in BAD shape but..... Just watch any video or stand track side or better yet, take a ride (Support them) and see for yourself. Strasburg's trackage definitely qualifies for 30mph (or better) and is what the NH-Lahaska used to look like.

The line south of Lahaska has seen much work since the early 2000's, but again, it's be a stretch to push more than 15-20 mph on most of the line.
Author:  solar1953 [ Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fastest Preserved Railroads
I didn't realize the GCRy was still listed as a common carrier. That's interesting.
Author:  rock island lines [ Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fastest Preserved Railroads
The WRM looks fast. Maybe Robert can comment.
Author:  Al Stangenberger [ Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fastest Preserved Railroads
As Dave Johnston pointed out, WRM is limited to 30 mph by FRA regulation.

We have a very good track crew and the track we operate on is probably physically capable of nigher speeds at present, but the 30 mph speed limit is the law we operate under.
Author:  Larry Lovejoy [ Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fastest Preserved Railroads
The issue that limits most heritage railways to 30 mph or less is paragraph 213.237 (a) of 49CFR213, the FRA Track Safety Standards, viz:

§ 213.237 Inspection of rail. (a) In addition to the track inspections required by §213.233, a continuous search for internal defects shall be made of all rail in Classes 4 through 5 track, and Class 3 track over which passenger trains operate, at least once every 40 million gross tons (mgt) or once a year, whichever interval is shorter. On Class 3 track over which passenger trains do not operate such a search shall be made at least once every 30 mgt or once a year, whichever interval is longer. (This paragraph (a) is applicable January 1, 1999.

So, unless you have a Sperry Car (or equivalent) running over your line annually, you are limited to Class 2 speeds, i.e. 25 mph for freight cars and 30 mph for passenger equipment. If you haven’t checked your rail, it doesn’t matter that whether you impeccably maintain the condition of your ties, ballast, track surface, etc.; you’re restricted to Class 2 speeds.

A related factor is that many, if not most, heritage railways are running on rail that was rolled before 1937 and hence predates the advent of control cooling. Such rail is more likely to be susceptible to shatter cracks due to hydrogen embrittlement, although I’m inclined to think that an old rail hasn’t shattered by now, it’s unlikely to in the future.

With respect to speed at grade crossings, the salient issue that limits heritage operations to 15 mph are locomotive horns (or whistles) that don’t meet the requirements of 49CFR229, paragraph 229.129 (a), viz:

(a) Each lead locomotive shall be equipped with a locomotive horn that produces a minimum sound level of 96 dB(A) and a maximum sound level of 110 dB(A) at 100 feet forward of the locomotive in its direction of travel.

On the trolley museum side of our business (such as Western Railway Museum), not many cars are equipped with horns that loud.

However, it is important to note that, the FRA does not strictly enforce all of its regulations on non-insular tourist railways that operate off the general system. The list of regulations they do enforce are shown in the attached “decision tree” issued by FRA back in 2010. Neither 49CFR213 nor 49CFR229 are mentioned there, so there presumably is some wiggle room on the letter of the above requirements. However, the FRA does retain the right to enforce all of their regulations on all of us under their “emergency order” jurisdiction. Note also that your insurance carrier might reasonably consider FRA regulations as minimum performance standards and be concerned if your operation routinely exceeds them.

/s/ Larry
Lawrence G. Lovejoy, P.E.

Attachments:
2010TouristRailroadDecisionTree.pdf [16.08 KiB]
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Author:  robertmacdowell [ Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fastest Preserved Railroads
Aside from that, each reg's Applicability section says whether it applies to non-general-system tourist railways. The trick is: you must disregard the phrase "inside an installation which is".

An example is 49 CFR 229, which in 229.3 says "This part does not apply to... A railroad that operates only on track inside an installation which is not part of the general railroad system of transportation..." That magic phrasing refers to non-general-system operations.

So if you do not have any operations in the general system, none of the 229 rules apply. Since this rulemaking is done by FRA and not Congress, FRA can alter and interpret it.

Ultimately FRA's "big stick" is the Emergency Order authority, by which they can shut down operations which are clearly dangerous, and inspect for that purpose, which allows them to inspect generally and nudge you to change practices (under threat of E.O.) So some of these "rules", particularly the apocryphal ones, are more like negotiated "treaties" which constitute the generally accepted practice: conforming to it keeps FRA's oversight simple. Most people like simple. If you want to do something beyond that, you'll face more scrutiny and you'll need to do more legwork to justify your practice. And who knows, you may end up raising the bar for us all.
Author:  Robert Opal [ Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fastest Preserved Railroads
David Johnston wrote:
FRA 49CFR209 appendix A limits preservation railroads to 30 mph and 15 mph at a grade crossing. To go faster than this the preservation railroad would have to be fully FRA compliant.


In response to Mr. Johnston's note of 7-2-15, I'm pretty familiar with FRA's rules and policies applicable to "preservation railroads", including the rule he cited, 49 CFR 209, Appendix A. After seeing his note, I again reviewed this rule. I didn't find anything in it that generally limit preservation railroads to "30 mph and 15 mph at a grade crossing" on pain of being "fully FRA compliant". The closest thing I'm aware of is a provision in FRA's train horn rule (49 CFR Part 222) which makes that particular rule inapplicable to non-general system passenger railroads that operate at 15 mph or less over public crossings (49 CFR 222.5(b)). I know of no basis for the 30 mph criteria he mentions. If Mr. Johnston has some specific citations for rules that support his claims, i would appreciate if he would supply them.

For anyone who wants to dig further into this, 49 CFR Part 209 Appendix A is available at the web address shown below. The portion of the appendix discussing preservation railroads ("tourist railroads") is under the title "The Exercise and Extent of FRA's Safety Jurisdiction".,

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2014-t ... 9-appA.pdf
Author:  Robert Opal [ Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fastest Preserved Railroads
Al Stangenberger wrote:
As Dave Johnston pointed out, WRM is limited to 30 mph by FRA regulation.

We have a very good track crew and the track we operate on is probably physically capable of nigher speeds at present, but the 30 mph speed limit is the law we operate under.



With respect to the FRA track standards (49 CFR Part 213), section 213.3(b) reads, in relevant part, as follows:

(b) This part [ed., Part 213] does not apply to track:

(1) * * *

(2) Used exclusively for tourist, scenic, historic, or excursions operations that are not part of the general railroad system of transportation. As used in this part, tourist, scenic, historic, or excursion operation that are not part of the general railroad system of transportation means a tourist, scenic, historic or excursion operation conducted only on track used exclusively for that purpose (i.e., there is no freight, inter-city passenger or commuter passenger operations on the track)...
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