Ross & The Rest of RYPN Viewers,

May I suggest that the Reading Co. Technical and Historical Society pursue this? It may be a bit much for them to tackle in light of their pursuit of the Hamberg Museum project but they are a logical choice. It would be great if they restored a rake of the old Reading MU coaches and painted them green. It would be very close to the trains used in the Ramble Days.

As with the 2102 at the R&N, it makes a hard business case to invest such a large amount in one restoration of a 4-8-4 let alone two. In the case of the RCT&HS, they may have the critical mass to sustain the 2100's preservation for the long term. As a bonus, the engine would be close to the "fatherland".

A question, Ross, you stated that she needs substantial mechnical repairs. A side from the conversion to oil, which I recall was a painful experince, she doesn't have that many miles on her since the initial overahaul in Hagerstown not that many years ago. Perhaps this surrounds boiler work? I am not up to speed on the Form 4 requirements with regards to flue time but maybe that's it? I also recall that the 2100 had a substantial investment made in her at Hagerstown.

As I said then and do again now, maybe we'll see her come east and again see two T-Hogs assaulting Locust Summit??

Cheers,

Randy Musselman

I wonder which would be cheaper these days, a freshly overhauled QJ with spare parts or a T-1 in need of repair and no parts to spare.

I can comment on the totally first class job that Bill Benson and his crew did during the complete restoration on her (1987-89) in Hagerstown as I was a minority partner then in the locomotive. Bill and his crew spared no effort or expense (funded largely by Mr. Richard Kughn of Detroit,Mi.) to go over every system and appliance and do all necessary to end up with as close as possible to a like new locomotive.
I was privileged to be part of the crew during her break-in runs out of Hagerstown and can testify that there wasn't a single steam leak anywhere and she ran flawlessly.
After she was sold to Mr. Payne my knowledge has all been second or third hand and frankly the reports have not been good but again I have not been near the engine since she departed Ohio in 1995 enroute to Ontario.
I have, on authority I consider both knowledgeable and reliable that she now needs some rather extensive running gear repairs and some in depth appliances repairs in addition to some staybolt and other relatively routine boiler repairs. My WAG from the punch list I've seen is that in the aggregate the total repairs (NOT including reconversion to coal) needed should cost somewhere around $100,000 plus or minus. This guesstimate includes $40,000 to do repairs to the aux. tender which is in very rough shape.
The Rdg. Society might well be an appropriate body to adopt her. I know very little about them so can't comment further on that aspect.
From my life experience whenever the attorneys get involved things slow down big time so who knows how long it will take to get the actual sale scheduled or how it will be structured????
Only time will tell, but if you want to be at the bidding table get your cash lined up sooner than later as they might just fool us and do it quickly (not likely but not impossible).
IMHO-Ross Rowland

But, pray tell, since when has such logic, common sense, and hard math ever dominated any steam locomotive restoration project?

Ross's comments on the Hagerstown restoration are accurate. The only thing I would add is that the '00 already has the '01's stoker.

I forgot that we took the '01's stoker for the 2100. Another senior moment!! From one of the above posts the good news is that the RR Museum in Ontario has the complete stoker mechanism from the 2100 cleaned up and on display so it would appear that converting back to coal could be an option??
I'm now told that there MAY be some side sheet repairs needed possibly caused by rapid pressure changes during operation a/c the rube goldberg oil firing set-up??? I have no idea if this is so or if it is the extent of the repairs needed.
I'm sure that anyone who bids on the engine will give it a complete going over.
Ross Rowland

I found the 2100 and shot a few photos of her while waiting for the 844 and 4449 to return from the doubleheader on Friday. Can't tell much from the outside, but she looks to be complete.

Albeit, it sounds like she would be best transported on flat cars, as she arrived in Tacoma. I recall the photos of her in route.......rather frightening! I would suspect it had a high center of gravity. This would be a high-wide and easy does it. But of course with double stack train routes, perhaps the height is a non-issue.

In any event, hauling her in, crane fees on and off......more $$$.

With regards to her first restore, I remember doing a walk-around her at the Hagerstown roundhouse, her paint job was phenominal. You could see yourself in the gloss.

As for the economics of a QJ versus a T-1, it may make sense but the QJ would not have built in the "fatherland". The T-1 probably has higher tractive effort and more horsepower at speed. The 2100 is one of (4) that survived. Get her close to the '02' and pair them up.

I guess you would say I am a T-1 lover but to be honest, she looks better going away than coming at you. The Reading G-3 pacific had a better face look...a higher headlight. (My personal opinion.) Otherwise, she has got good lines. I like the T-1's since they have been so much a part of my life......seeing them as kid on the Rambles in the early sixties on the old Reading branch between Gettysburg and Carlisle, seeing the 2101 on the Freedom Train in 1976 and on the Chessie Steam Specials in the 80's, the rebirth of the 2100 and the 2102 on the BM&R and R&N in the 90's. I can still recall the 2102 and 425 doubleheading at track speed on the BM&R....very impressive.

Back in the Steam Special days, I wish I could have rode behind the 2101 when she was led by (2) WM F units up Jack's Mountain west of my home town of Gettysburg, PA on the old WM Dutch Line...all three on their hands and knees! I assume the F's were for the dynamic brakes. I believe that trip was from Baltimore, MD to Hargerstown, MD and return.

Regards,

Randy Musselman

As to the comparison of a T-1 vs. a Chinese QJ seems to me it's apples and oranges??? If you're an American steam lover (with a fat checkbook) I would guess that you're most likely to find a LOT more appeal in owning an American icon vs. a Chinese knock-off???
This whole steam locomotive "thing" is after all NOT about sound business decisions it's about affairs of the heart!! And when it comes to affairs of the heart " beauty is in the eye of the beholder".
Just think if everyone only liked blondes there'd be a heck of a shortage of blonds and a heck of a surplus of brunnets!! Fortunatly the good Lord had it figured out just right (or real close!!)
The fact that the 2 QJ's remain unsold speaks volumnes about the real demand at least in the USA.
IMHO-Ross Rowland

Actually Ross, it was 5 QJs. Unfortunately, not too many prospects now for a fleet of matched engines with mutually interchangeable parts.

How many legitimate buyers are lined up, fighting each other to make good offers for 614?

Took many years to find a buyer even for 1744 - and that's a "right-sized" engine in comparison.

There's a FEC 4-6-2 on a high mountain in Colorado now - awaiting costly restoration. Might a running SY have been a better choice? Was it even considered? In either case, why? Florida is only slightly closer than China, and neither choice has any heritage consideration relative to the line.

It's about needs and motivations - a Reading T1 means more to many of us then just a "steam engine", but not necessarily to others. That's where emotion enters into a simple business decision - how to produce the least expensive vapor-powered ability to haul X number of butts in seats repeatedly and reliably.

If anything, Golden Pacific might teach us something about why emotional motivations without a good business plan aren't enough to provide a sound basis for an enterprise in the entertainment industry - or not, but that chapter is yet to be written. Would it have succeeded using SP&S 700? Would it have succeeded with a matched pair of QJ's? Would it have have succeeded using Alco FA's?

Somehow I don't think it is all about power choice in this case. I'm guessing it wasn't the train enough people wanted to ride enough times to be profitable, no matter what was pulling it - but that's just based on secondhand information. It would be interesting to compare it to the Tacoma excursions run by Mt Rainier Scenic RR using their lighter train much less frequently.

In any case, I have to applaud Henry Posner for taking a world view rather than a more parochial one when it comes to steam preservation.

dave

I concur with part of what you say Dave-the part that its an emotional thought process vs. a rational business one.
I too applaud Mr. Posner for his approach. I'll bet that eventually both those sound machines will find a home where they can earn their keep (Grand Canyon, Smokey Mountain,etc.) and will more than likely be cosmetically "fixed" to look more at home than at present???
I was attempting to answer the question of relative appeal to a potential buyer of an operable T-1 vs. a QJ.
You're correct that the identifyable pool of potential buyers is practically non-existant due to the realities of todays railroad environment. The only offer of substance we recieved during our 2 year effort (1999-2000) to sell the 614 to a responsible buyer (at a VERY fair price) was from a developer who planned to hang her from the ceiling in a new mega western themed casino in Vegas. We turned them down as we couldn't stomach the thought of seeing this fine machine in that role.
It's near immpossible to say who(if anyone) will surface when the 2100 goes on the block-but the great thing is you never know. It's a well known fact that both Warren Buffet and his good pal Bill Gates are serious steam lovers so who knows maybe they'll take a turn at bat????
Stranger things have happened!!!
Ross Rowland

What would happen if the creditors were obtain possession of the engine? How long would they hold on to it before finding a buyer? How would they appraise the value of the engine?

Would be neat if it went up for sale in a foreclosure auction... well if the bidding started at one dollar... then we could all try to own a T-1.

Dreamers! Lessee, I've got 220 tons @ $326 per ton … that's $72,000 less costs to cut… better come up with about sixty grand, or it'll become rebar for China's new dam.

If you buy it, then you have to move it… so I can't see going into this with less than 100 grand.

I applaud you for NOT selling 614 to the western themed casino. I am curious though, about two things. Your price for the locomotive was about $1.2 million was it not? And secondly, didn't Andy Mueller offer you about $250,000 for the locomotive during that time frame?

Torquemada

The "upset" price was not published, the asking price as published by D.F.Barnhardt with whom we contracted to sell the engine was $750,000 as is where is at Kearney NJ. The highest bid recieved at the auction did come from Mr. Muller and I believe was in the order of $150,000??? In any event it was well under our minimum price.
Well after the auction the casino developer came forward with a full price offer but we said no for the reason above stated.
Ross Rowland