I can state that IMHO Jim Wilson is good people and at the end of the day he'll do a first rate job with this piece whatever he decides to do with it.
I've just formed a 501 c3 org. for the Yellow Ribbon Express project so I'm beginning my learning curve into the world of the "not for profits". I'm sure it will be interesting and enlightening and rewarding.
While Mr. Mitchell makes a good point I would guess that the tax consideration is one factor in almost all sizeable donations?
I'm about to find out first hand and I'll let you know what I discover soon.
Ross Rowland

This locomotive is an old friend of mine, I rode it many times. When Erie 833 was built, it had a probable life expectancy of twenty years. So far, it has been around almost three times as long as was expected, and survives while nearly all the people who designed and built it, and a lot of those who maintained and operated it for its original owner, have passed away. It got to the present both through fortunate combinations of circumstances and the efforts of very dedicated people who took good care of it. Hopefully it will continue to benefit from the interest of folks who value it and appreciate its significance.

I think that is true of most railroad equipment that survived long enough to be preserved.

Hopefully our Erie diner and other EL passenger equipment can be pulled by 833 again some time in the future.

Erie Lackawanna Dining Car Preservation Society
http://www.eldcps.org

MXdata,

I'm still sore about the Cleveland Twist Drill milling machine affair.

I don't think that the Western Reserve Historical Society has any interest in the industrial heritage of Northeast Ohio. That would be OK if the WRHS wasn't held out to be THE historical society for that part of the state. They are the ones that get a majority of the contributions and are the ones that overshadow all other organizations in the area. Basically if the WRHS isn't preserving Cleveland's industrial history, their presence makes it almost impossible for another organization to accomplish that task.

Same with the Ohio Historical Society. I'm convinced that they could care less about Ohio's industrial history. Their treatment of the Youngstown Historical Center of Industry and Labor as a redheaded stepchild proves that. So where does that leave the preservation of Ohio's industrial heritage?

In your very capable hands for one, along with Dennis, Jack, Jerry Joe, et al. Counting on public sector or quasi-private enormous political institutional involvement is risky, and likely to disappoint.

Industrial heritage is a stepchild of a different color in the USA - it seems at odds with the new environmentalism, and doesn't interest the little old ladies in tennis shoes that form the basis of support for the old house museums, etc. History wasn't always what most people consider pretty, which doesn't make it any the less worthy of being preserved and interpreted.

dave

In the library for which I do some volunteer work, I swear that for every bozo that demands a receipt for the donation of two relatively recent railroad magazines, we have someone that donates hundreds of high-value, rare books and dismissively waves off any proffered receipt or inventory for tax purposes.

So sad.

Support accounting education in your community!

I can say that, in at least two instances of large material donations, the donors died within a year. It's a safe bet to say that the return on investment of extensive accounting towards a final tax return or estate is minimal at best, and by donating while they're still alive they deftly avoid potential estate taxes.

To each his own, however.

You asked “why shouldn't the donor have a chance (or at least first option) at reclaiming "his" loco?

And then stated the following:

"Not EVERY donation to a museum or non-profit is driven by the tax deduction offered"

"I can say that, in at least two instances of large material donations, the donors died within a year. It's a safe bet to say that the return on investment of extensive accounting towards a final tax return or estate is minimal at best, and by donating while they're still alive they deftly avoid potential estate taxes. "

I return to my original point: “In any case, you still won't be finding many donors placing conditions on their donated property that will preclude the receipt of a tax deduction.” Although I didn't consider in my response-avoiding the gift tax is similar-you must give a gift of “present interest”, and placing reversionary conditions would make the gift incomplete and cause the property to be included in the decedent’s estate for tax purposes. People with enough money to donate a locomotive don't acquire that kind of wealth by ignoring the substantial effects of tax consequences. Certainly, someone anticipating death will have no incentive to even attempt to structure a donation to retain conditional powers of appointment.

Okay, one last attempt at addressing the broader issues:

Do you think Pete Waterman wrote out a big fat check to cover the costs of restoring the British National Railway Museum's LNWR "Super D" 0-8-0 to operation because he was looking for a tax write-off?

Do you think Bennett Levin picked up a trio of E8s and various passenger cars in hopes of avoiding estate taxes by donating them to some museum at the "right" time?

Does anyone think Henry K. Long, William Moedinger, and all the others bought into the Strasburg Rail Road just so they could get free rail passes as vice-presidents of a railroad? (Don't laugh--that was actually a very popular legend in Lancaster County around 1959-60......... and I don't for a minute doubt that it drove more than a few purchasers.....)

There ARE folks out there whose motivations go further than a discussion with the accountant. Foregoing an outright donation until near-death or placing conditions on a donation can, in some cases, actually spare a lot of grief. I can recount at least one instance where a "long-term loan" was eventually reclaimed after everyone thought it belonged to the railroad.

But we're WAY off topic now. New thread?

One last shot at addressing the original point, which was your idea of conditional donations. Do people do things out of the goodness of their heart? Yes. Should ignore taxes? No.

"Do you think Pete Waterman wrote out a big fat check to cover the costs of restoring the British National Railway Museum's LNWR "Super D" 0-8-0 to operation because he was looking for a tax write-off?"

Since I have no expertise with the UK tax system and haven't discussed the idea with Mr. Waterman, I have no idea. Unless you've reviewed his taxes or interviewed him, neither do you. I bet however, if the chancellor of the exchequer allowed some tax benefit, he availed himself of it. If he didn't, he cheated himself and made a smaller donation than he could have. In any case, a check is not a conditional donation, its fee simple, pure and simple.

"Do you think Bennett Levin picked up a trio of E8s and various passenger cars in hopes of avoiding estate taxes by donating them to some museum at the "right" time?"

No, because he owns and operates them-he hasn't donated them to any one and I hope he remains their patron for years to come, so I can see them and ride them.


"Does anyone think Henry K. Long, William Moedinger, and all the others bought into the Strasburg Rail Road just so they could get free rail passes as vice-presidents of a railroad? (Don't laugh--that was actually a very popular legend in Lancaster County around 1959-60......... and I don't for a minute doubt that it drove more than a few purchasers.....)"

Once again, this is not a donor situation. SRR was a innovative BUSINESS and it remains such and as a result, it remains viable and creative as it seeks the almighty dollar from willing patrons, including me.

I'm going to try this again, but I'm getting a little frustrated. Nobody's donations are "tainted" if they structure them effectively to obtain relief from the tax man. I resent the implicit idea that somebody coming to see me or another accountant before helping a charity is somehow less noble. On the contrary, doing so make actually allow them to be more generous.

When I cut my checks to my church and charities, I ensure that I get a letter from them, in order to get an itemized deduction. By getting my tax benefits, I can be a little freerer with my coin. Trust me, I know what I gave and what it did to my 1040. I actually love the idea that I can direct money that would have gone to Washington, elsewhere.

Back to the subject of donations of property. If I were to donate a locomotive with a fair value of $200,000, I could have a potential tax benefit of tens of thousands of dollars. Making a donation with strings would not only involve the loss of that deduction, perhaps making the donation financially infeasible, but would require drafting legal documents that would be expensive.

The bottom line: conditional donations are infeasible for tax reasons.