My newspaper, The Charlotte Observer, carried an editorial today decrying a developer's plans to build luxury homes on land adjacent to the NPS' Valley Forge site in Pennsylvania. This brings to mind yet another important piece of the puzzle for those of us whose landscape is part of the experience visitors get. I recall that I recoiled a couple of years ago while at Los Pinos tank on the C&TS when I saw the vacation homes that had been built on some of the meadow out there. If you've got vacant land adjacent to your place, be sure to find out who owns it, what they're gonna do with it.. and buy it if you can! Jim


Wrinnbo@aol.com

If you've got
> vacant land adjacent to your place, be sure
> to find out who owns it, what they're gonna
> do with it.. and buy it if you can! Jim

I seem to recall IRM has been very active in doing this. Can somebody fill us in?

Of course, you could always try Strasbug's solution and see if you can get a community of Amish and Memmoites to settle next door. :-)


eledbetter@rypn.org

> Of course, you could always try Strasbug's
> solution and see if you can get a community
> of Amish and Memmoites to settle next door.
> :-)

And a great museum across the street.

Speaking of across the street, Jim, how about Spencer Shops buying up all that dead shopping center and parking lot property and reconstructing the old railroad hotel and other missing infrastructure? It would make a great B&B.

Dave


irondave@bellsouth.net

> And a great museum across the street.

> Speaking of across the street, Jim, how
> about Spencer Shops buying up all that dead
> shopping center and parking lot property and
> reconstructing the old railroad hotel and
> other missing infrastructure? It would make
> a great B&B.

> Dave

Well, actually, the town has been trying to acquire it for some time but the owner is difficult to deal with so...

Incidentally, original use was a railroad park--no hotel there. It had a pretty neat entrance with the SR logo and all!



Wrinnbo@aol.com

I would say that IRM has always put land acquisition among our highest priorities, right up there around building storage barns. It has been realized that while we're out in the country now, it won't stay that way forever. IRM has at least some "buffer space" - fields that are rented out to farmers - on three sides, with the fourth side being bordered by the Union Pacific.

Frank Hicks, IRM

frank@gats.com

> Well, actually, the town has been trying to
> acquire it for some time but the owner is
> difficult to deal with so...

> Incidentally, original use was a railroad
> park--no hotel there. It had a pretty neat
> entrance with the SR logo and all!

Hey Jim:

The subject of your thread "Something new to think about" got me thinking about something new (your fault for bringing it up!) I recall seeing a painting a number of years ago in TRAINS Magazine (I think) of a Southern 0-8-0 that some SRR engineer "dolled up." It really looked great! Now I know that you guys at Spencer once had an 0-8-0 (Illinois Central) that you traded for the Southern 2-8-0 from Knoxville. AND I know that you guys are not adverse to "recreating" Southern steam ("Southern 2-8-0 #604 from BC&G "Old Slobberface" #4). So I wonder if you guys have ever thought about recreating that nifty little Southern 0-8-0? I know that the IC engine didn't look anything like a SRR 0-8-0 but those derelict GTW 0-8-0's at Galt, Illinois seem to have a pretty good resemblance! Anyway, as YOU said, just thinking about something new!

Les Beckman (HVRM)

midlandblb@cs.com

Thanks for letting us know Valley Forge's plight has reached Charlotte. I understand the story was picked up in Providence RI as well.

The site in question is within the borders of VFNP as it was defined by Congress, but funding was never appropriated to buy the land. It is currently a private orchard. The site is across the PA Route 422 expressway (which parallels the abandoned PRR Schuylkill Division) from the main area of the park, and adjoins the Federal-era Fatlands Mansion, itself belatedly acquired by VFNP. The PRR ROW is a rail-trail and PA 422 cuts the area in question apart from the main part of the Park.

The "McMansions" Toll Bros. usually build would probably lie in the sightline from the main encampment at VF, and the sightlines are a prime interpretive tool explaining why Washington picked Valley Forge for the encampment and why the British never attacked him there.

While the PRR Schuylkill Secondary Track was abandoned when Conrail came in, the RDG Main Line (now NS Corp.) runs right through the park. Two RDG stations, Valley Forge and Port Kennedy, are part of VFNP but are not open to the public.

The Electric City Trolley Museum Association

> Incidentally, original use was a railroad
> park--no hotel there. It had a pretty neat
> entrance with the SR logo and all!

Confused - I remember old photos of a big frame building with two or three story veranda in Spencer that was either hotel or boarding house - where was it? Next block down?

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> Hey Jim:

> The subject of your thread "Something
> new to think about" got me thinking
> about something new (your fault for bringing
> it up!) I recall seeing a painting a number
> of years ago in TRAINS Magazine (I think) of
> a Southern 0-8-0 that some SRR engineer
> "dolled up." It really looked
> great! Now I know that you guys at Spencer
> once had an 0-8-0 (Illinois Central) that
> you traded for the Southern 2-8-0 from
> Knoxville. AND I know that you guys are not
> adverse to "recreating" Southern
> steam ("Southern 2-8-0 #604 from
> BC&G "Old Slobberface" #4). So
> I wonder if you guys have ever thought about
> recreating that nifty little Southern 0-8-0?
> I know that the IC engine didn't look
> anything like a SRR 0-8-0 but those derelict
> GTW 0-8-0's at Galt, Illinois seem to have a
> pretty good resemblance! Anyway, as YOU
> said, just thinking about something new!

> Les Beckman (HVRM)

Well, Les, we gave up "recreating" for lent. That's why the IC engine went ot the park in Winston-Salem (not Knoxville) in trade for "the real thing" of SR/Spencer vintage. I think our biggest challenge will be to see if this one can be resurrected... or if not, at least cosmetically done well. As for 604, I think once SR 542 is back among the living, she'll want to shimmy out of that black dress and put her W.Va. rags back on. At least I hope so!

Happy New Year! Jim


http://nctrans.org
Wrinnbo@aol.com

> Confused - I remember old photos of a big
> frame building with two or three story
> veranda in Spencer that was either hotel or
> boarding house - where was it? Next block
> down?

> Dave

Where the new RR YMCA was is where the old one was.

http://nctrans.org
Wrinnbo@aol.com

Just to the north of IRM is the East Troy Electric Railroad in Wisconsin. We have also been forced to acquire adjacent properties to our line as the area suburbanizes. Of course, this puts a strain on our resources and requires us to be landlords, but it beats the alternative of having NIMBYS complaining about such things as whistle blowing and weed spraying, and blocking plans for expansion.

Believe me, the argument "the railroad was here first," doesn't always work.

East Troy Electric Railroad
jftrolley@aol.com

While I'm not a big fan of ole Toll Bros. I can say this, I'm in no hurry to see Valley Forge built up. I live in West Chester and Chester County is vastly becoming too built up. There is a lot of construction going on here, not to mention Montgomery county. Toll Bros has a nice foot in the door in both counties. Oh well, that's just the way it goes sometimes I guess.


unfunkyufo76@hotmail.com

Perfect timing Jim. We at Orange Empire just made offers on two land parcels. Unfortunately, we are in southern California! 5.3 acres = $100,000 and 13.6 acres = $325,000 Our stalwart supporters have come up with over $50,000 in donations in the last two weeks, but we have a long way to go on this one. The parcels both adjoin to our existing property. There is a third parcel that would be ideal, but it's 19+ acres. I can only imagine what we will have to try to come up with if it comes available.

Corey Wylde
OERM

http://www.oerm.org
wyld@oc-net.com

Jim,

One of the worst cases of urban vandalism to affect a railroad museum was the wanton destruction of downtown Scranton in 1992. Despite some local opposition and full re-use planning, the city of Scranton demolished the heart of its largely intact early1900Â’s main drag, Lackawanna Avenue. The reason? To build a mall. Fast forward 10 years and it is a now failing mall, which also drove the last spike in the heart of downtown retailers, including the only viable department store. (Meant to revitalize downtown, it killed The Globe department store.)

The railroad tragedy?

The wonderful cluster of buildings formed the authentic steam-era backdrop for the Steamtown National Historic Site. Oh yes, the Mall also took 10 acres of the Steamtown site and caused the removal of the famous China Wall portion of the DL&W mainline.

The local political “element” wanted the mall, and they were going to get it. So, they turned the demolition of their history into a spectacle of TNT, available for $19.95 on VHS tape. There were all sorts of other sordid details in the press (like who owned what building foreclosed at what price and who paid it). The mall went up with a large push from department store maverick Al Boscov, who could then add Scranton to the list of NE PA cities his brand of “economics” had blemished.

I love the fact that the mall’s webpage says about the urban tragedy “The implosion of the properties on Lackawanna Avenue occurred on April 5, 1992. Crowds gathered to witness this historic event. The implosion was broadcast live by local stations and CNN, internationally.”

Historic event?

Ugh.

I called then-Mayor Jim ConnorÂ’s office the day after the implosions to congratulate him on orchestrating what may have been the single most visible example of cultural destruction and ignorance ever to be shown on live TV. And thatÂ’s saying a lot.

It was a very difficult time to consider “preservation” and “Scranton” in the same sentence, and the mall fiasco was a major element in the public whipping Steamtown took.

ItÂ’s 10 years now. The countyÂ’s Larry Malski and Delaware-Lackawanna rail guys have done a tremendous job getting the railroading back to where it should be. I mean, really, honestly tremendous.

As for the city? It is the same straits as it was a decade ago, except now it has a dying mall on its hands, rather than a crusty, historic downtown. And Steamtown is still there, maturing and coming into its own, with the same hulking mall as its background.

The pattern of demolition continues (the famous Casey Hotel was felled recently), as the City of Scranton apparently has not learned the lessons of other mid-size cities: history sells. Scranton continues to emulate failed communities like Asbury Park, NJ rather than comeback stories like Portland, OR.

And the museum suffers for it.

Rob Davis



superc@monmouth.com