There is another environmental movement developing, this time trying to force all the "old cars" off the roads. The people pushing this are trying to paint the owners of older vehicles as criminals in the same way that is being done to the owners of SUV's by our "mainstream" media. Get ready for the tearful interviews with parents "concerned" that kids lives are going to be ruined by the emissions from these "older" vehicles, and the legions of legislators who just can't wait for another opportunity to tax somebody else out of existence.

This is somewhat off-topic but it is something you all better be aware of. It is just a matter of time before this descends on the railroad preservation community, and the EPA shows up to see what is coming out the stack on your equipment. Now that the politicians have figured out that picking on small groups with "odd" interests over environmental matters is an opportunity to make themselves look like heroes, there is no limit to this.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/200 ... ions_N.htm

I believe that this observation is very much on-topic. Unfortunately, politics has made targeting small groups with unusual interests part of its MO, and using them to make themselves look good. I'm extremely concerned for the operation side of the railroad preservation movement. Special interest groups are loud and organized; museum railroads aren't.

I can only assume that the final quote of the article ("We need to get the old junkers off the road") was chosen deliberately. It certainly doesn't leave any room on the highway for the owners of antique vehicles, does it?

The thinking is right in line with what has been appearing locally in my part of the country, where they want to impose "green taxes" on the owners of certain types of vehicles, soon to be expanded into fees and taxes and fines related to the kind of stuff you send to the dump, higher taxes if you home has heating equipment beyond a certain age, etc. etc. This of course will require more inspections, more inspectors, more bureaucracy.

When they start talking about scrapping "old stuff" that is not "environmentally friendly" as a way to raise funds for projects that are supported by the environmental elite, look out!

Very on topic….

As Dave said, the lack of cohesive organization on the part of railroad museums/operators is perhaps the darkest shadow on the horizon here. Unfortunately it is much easier for legislators and activists to go after the small “niche” groups and make a statement or create “feel good legislation” than it is to say, go after GM and raise fuel standards (or insert big other big name here).

While I’m far form a liberal activist, carbon emissions ARE a problem as a whole, the 65-70% of cars on the road built before 1995 with lower emissions standards ARE a part of the problem. SUV’s guzzeling gas at 18 mpg ARE part of the problem (not to mention gas prices, see supply/demand economic theory).

That being said It’s much easier/quicker for an activist, reporter or legislator to regulate a steam tourist pike out of existence than it is to take on the auto industry (again insert other cause here). While the coal burning 2-6-2 going 15 mph or even the 4-8-4 doing 80 isn’t the problem, they do make for easy prey.

I think far to often we label environmentalists as chicken little whack jobs (and there are those among them….) while going with the “best defense is a good offense course of action”. Instead I would say that we as an industry need to get our house in order and be able to explain that:

1. We the tourist railroad industry represent the tiniest fraction of carbon emissions.
2. The benefits (economic, cultural) far out way any ill effects, however negligible.

Will explaining your position based on the above actually get the reporters on your side each time? Probably not, but it will go farther than pulling out the “left wing nut job” card as a knee-jerk first response.

Dave Crosby

The sky is falling, the sky is falling.

Fred
SRI

I think this is a huge threat to any hobby or recreation that includes the operation of antique power equipment, including locomotives, automobiles, farm equipment, bulldozers, etc. This topic has been bubbling up on the antique Caterpillar sites from time to time. Apparently the threat is looming largest in California.

Of course, the emission contribution of this hobby activity is so small that it is irrelevant. However, in the general mind of the green movement, the symbolism alone of antique equipment stands for a time before they intervened and prevented industry from running roughshod over the environment. So the nostalgia we feel for the lost ages of the industrial revolution is largely looked upon with disdain by the green movement. And as has been pointed out, the hobby, museum, and recreation sector is low hanging fruit for the green crusade.

RTK

The whole car thing really torques me off
Yea, we produce more emissions, but not when you factor in the manufacturing emissions for building the new car
It is stupid to think that buying a new car every 2-4 years because the emmisions are lower saves the enviroment, when the steel & aluminum is chinese, (no enviro laws) and the disposal of these late model cars (with 50% plastic aka no reuseble value) is infinitely worst
and don't get me started about the hybrid joke
and with ethanol takes 75,000 btu's (nat gas) to produce 100,000 btu's of fuel
the museums need a good org w/ lobbyists th ensure survival

ok, I've calmed down now........

dr

While I think operators of old equipment need to protect their interests while laws are being made, I didn't see too much frightening in that article. I think it referred to pre-1996 cars (like my very sad looking 1988 Nissan pickup) that are in regular use, not antiques that run in three parades per year. I think the biggest threat to operating historic equipment comes (for now) from NIMBYS at the local level.

where a bunch of NIMBYs who moved in recently are forcing the owners of the D&S to spend millions, just because THEY moved into an area near the rail yard.

This is very relevent! As one who is also into the old car hobby, this is not a new issue, and has been a topic of concern for the 20 years that I have been involved. I have read of towns that have gentrification laws that prevent you from having a vehicle of a certain age in your drive-way. I think it was an "exclusive" town that is a suburb of Chicago that actually did that. So much for property rights, let alone environmental issues. You also have crusher laws that come-up from time to time that have the potential of destroying very rare a valuable cars or potential donor cars, all in the name of the enviroment.

One thing that the old car hobby has on its side is SEMA (Speciality Equipment Manufactuers Association) and a number of other old car hobby industry organizations that actually lobby in Washington to advocate on behalf of the hobby. The old car hobby is a multi-billion dollar industry and there are those that will fight to keep it.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but is there an industry organization that advocates on behalf of our industry on these kind of issues in Washington? If there isn't, is there a possiblity for such a group to exist? From my personal observations and a potenital problem to organizing a rail museum industry group, is provincialism. No knock on any museum or operation, but if you operate in New England, you might be so busy keeping your operation a float, that you may not have the time to know what similar issues that another organization might be going through on the West coast, and vice-versa. Therefore our collective interests in fighting off such things as arcane environmental laws may not have the bite that a SEMA does for the old car hobby.

Again, just my personal observation and no knock against any organization. Just some food for thought and in my opinion a very serious issue that could jepordize a successful future for our industry. Especially against an "environazi" lobby that is very well organized, very well funded, very well connected and for the most part very ill-informed.

Dave "eriemike"

As a resident of California, I am frequently on the front line of these issues, and I see the threat differently. Most of the efforts against “older” or “junk” cars are focused on the 25 year old cars, which are in daily use, being kept on the road because they are cheap, not because they are collectable. From time to time our local agencies offer a bounty for old cars turned in to be crushed….

Here in California, and I suspect elsewhere, there are various exemptions for historic or collector vehicles. Yes, the authorities are after railroads (including short lines) for emissions, but on at least a couple cases they have pulled back on steam locos or museum locos because they are perceived as historic, and probably exempt (I say probably because like many bodies of law, environmental law is a many layered collection of state, federal and local laws, and I very well may be breaking one by exhaling…) It is always possible that on a given day an law enforcement official may take offense at the visible smoke from your prized artifact, and try to shut you down, but it is not likely that your local air agency will target a museum.

On the other hand, environmental law, including well thought out environmental law will likely make our preservation efforts more difficult. Additionally, liability issues, whether law or litigation based will make other things less available.

We have lost access to many paints and solvents, which while they may be a hazard under some circumstances, may be the correct product for the application, and may be safe when correctly used. Those operating air conditioned equipment are already feeling the effect of bans on various refrigerants, and need to modify equipment to use the new replacement products. As older equipment is scrapped we lose access to the spare parts system that supported it. Think about a world without spare parts for various EMD 567 engines. This is possible if the commercial railroad world scraps all their older locos in favor of new green locos. You can extend the example to any other brand of locomotive… And as the older locomotives go because of emissions, they will be replaced by locomotives with solid state controls, and you won’t be able to buy new contactors and other electrical parts.

I wonder how much longer babbit will still be available. After all it contains lead. I need to have the clutch in our 7 ton Plymouth relined. There is still one clutch house here in California will use asbestos…. I wonder how much longer that will continue. The others don’t, and instead use substitutes which while they work, don’t work as well. There is pending legislation in California to ban the sale of conventional incandescent light bulbs. As far as I can tell it does not have a “historic” exemption. Think about your streetcar with curly compact florescent bulbs in open fixtures. At least at first we will be able to cross state lines to get the correct bulbs, but what happens when there is too little demand to continue to produce traditional light bulbs? Recently I tried to purchase a small quantity of a lead based paint at my local paint pigment house (we have one, it appeals to traditional artists who believe if you use the paints Rembrandt did, you too will paint like Rembrandt.) The pigment is still available, but the store can’t purchase it because his UPS agreement specifically bans shipments of lead paint.

The old car guys are more likely to loose the body of junk cars from which they salvage parts for their restorations than they are to have a government agency force them to give up their collector car.

I wouldn't want to bet on anything being exempt in the future. The traditional protections afforded things that were old, and the exemptions and exceptions provided for having owned something for a long time before a law went into effect, all went down the drain beginning with the changes in firearms legislation over the last few decades, and are now expanding out into other areas including environmental law. Constitutional protections against "ex poste facto" legislation are essentially meaningless now. They can pass a law today making something you have owned legally for decades illegal, and turning you into a criminal for owning it. In fact in some states it doesn't even require legislation now, the Attorney General or Director of Public Safety can make the decision independent of the legislature or executive branch.

One more thing to consider is that though steam locomotives, vintage diesel's and vintage cars, vintage heavy equipment, vintage boats, and old airplanes are, by themselves, a small part of the equation on air pollution, there is another side.
When the argument is made that the old chuffer doesn't run enough to be a big piece of the pie, the counter will be reasonably laid that there are very few big pieces of the pie. That all contributors to air pollution must be stopped, no matter how large or small, because all those small contributors make up a very large contributor.
That doesn't have to make sense. It's the argument that'll be used.
On the 25 year old cars running around because they're cheaper, these vehicles might have better political support when it comes out that banning these types of cars discriminates against those with the fewest resources. Namely, the poor, who can't afford new cars.
That won't work for steam locomotives, or antique cars.
OTH, there isn't much point in going after the 25 year old cars, because before long they'll mostly all die from various ailments anyway. Except for the few diehards who'll keep them to become true antique vehicles. Upon which time they'll no longer be protected by the "poor" clause and will have to be retired.
Mark D.

Ah yes, the wackos are on the loose again! Exactly what we need is more government involvement in everything we do. Gobal warming is the buzzword now, as global cooling was back in the '70s.
Instead of concentrating on more important things such as protecting our borders and using common sense in DC, we get this. Of course the wackos are fully supported by the media in thier quest.
Where this will get dicey is that these old cars are most often owned by the left's favorite lip service group, the Poor. How will they handle this one?
Has anyone given any thought to how many airplanes are in the sky at any given time? I can't imagine the crap they pump into the air at high altitudes. I've never seen this mentioned. I guess they don't count because we so heavily subsidize them and pay for the airports.
I agree we should be far more energy conscious and live a "greener" life, but everyone should be involved.
Look at the auto selection today. How many high horsepower "hot" cars are offered? Are we not all in this together?
I'm glad I'm getting old.......

This is a interesting appropriate thread (I have even posted) but we need to keep it to issues of preservation, including effects of environmental regulations, staying away from general criticism of government officials, political parties and the like especially when such criticism heads towards a rant…

Thanks, your friendly moderator