ARM and TRAIN are you listening? More museums would join if we had real lobbyists to ply our proposals. It does take a lot of money though.

I have no axe to grind with baseball (or soccer, or football, or baseball, or volleyball AND CERTAINLY NOT kickball). What I was referring to is the type of parents, either living vicariously through their kids or deluded into thinking their kid will be better if they only turn play into work, who make little league a job.

My best memories of disorganized sports is playing "keep away" at lunch-no league, no candy sales, just a bunch a fifth graders (5A against 5B, the "ratpack" vs. the "savages", so named by the teachers who felt compelled to defend their professional credentials to my parents when yours truly, assigned the task of writing a 500 word essay, chose the topic "why this is a second rate school"-no TV's in class) running with a ball with victory determined by a roughly estimated time of possession. I also learned why you don't try to tackle a kid nicknamed "Steamroller" chest high-picking your pride and keister off the ground.

We learned more about self-governance, civilly resolving disputes and occasionally dampening the somewhat erratic emotions of 10 year olds.

Today its so organized, so regimented, I wonder if the kids I saw in the supermarket tonight, still up @ 10PM, ever have FUN?

Okay this is a lame effort to stay relevant, but have you ever wondered if your turnstyles would spin more if kids had a free Saturday instead of being scheduled like a corporate lawyer negotiating his/her first IPO?

P.J. O'Rourke's "parliament of wh**es"?

Hi,

I am troubled greenie. I just sold my Explorer, but still have a CRV. I try to recycle everything, but I am not perfect. I have not figured out to make my garden railroad run on solar, but I am working on it.

My point? I am one of the zillions who will be trying to help, and I will be part of the movement towards lower carbon emissions, even if I am not perfect.

At some point, this movement is going to have to address recreational use of carbon, hopefully only after the major polluters are done. Those of the steam oil and coal sect have bretheren in snowmobilers (this time) , boaters (outboard fishermen and fully crewed yachters), race car drivers, etc... The lot of these carbon interests probably adds up to less than 1% of the carbon used.

But divided they are easy targets.

One solution is to join hands over these common interests.

Another is to make sure you are keeping your representatives focused on the big offenders.

If you are a RUSH fan, and a middle-ager like me, you might be humming the tune "Red Barchetta" about this time. The criminalization of antique carbon burners could happen, but now is the time to work towards the more logical step of solving the big pieces first.

Rob

Rob, I am in the same boat. The trick is to get the militant greenies to understand that it's not all black and white...no pun intended.

Trying to live a "clean" lifestyle is a good thing. Everyone agrees that we shouldn't pollute like we did in the past - the image of a pipe coming out of a factory pouring out green liquid into the river has pretty much been removed from our landscape.

I hate seeing waste, because that is really pollution. Every time I pass a fast food joint and see what is coming out of their dumpster makes me cringe.

However, I am troubled by the "science" being thrown around to say that a) the planet is getting warmer and if that is true then b) we are causing it. As someone mentioned earlier in this thread in the early 1970's "science" was telling us we were on the verge of a new ice age. I think it is pretty well established that the earth's temperature has varied greatly over the last million or so years. Who is to say what the "right" temperature is?

I think a lot of this urge for government control of every aspect of our lives comes from the fact that the American public is being dumbed down at the same time it is being bombarded with media everywhere all the time. I'll even throw in that our vacation time is decreasing and even during vacation time we are still plugged into this media overload. Heck, I was on the Strasburg earlier this year and a few seats in front of me a guy was pecking away at his Blackberry while the wife and kids looked out the windows!

I am hoping that each of us in our own way can try to influence those around us to take a deep breath, accept personal responsibility, and resist the temptation to ask government to regulate everything in our lives - the "Nanny State". Here are two thoughts to calm down those with outlandish ideas on how to combat "global warming":

A firm I work with recently spent $15,000 on hazardous waste cleanup because a box of 10 compact florescent light bulbs fell and were accidentally crushed by a fork lift. These suckers have mercury in them and no one seems to care that there is no means put into place to safely dispose of them. In this case one of the workers called in the state DEP which order the area evacuated and hence the $15,000 cleanup. If California goes through with their plan to BAN incandescent lightbulbs can you imagine the potential mercury hazard we will see in the land and the water?

Finally, at the last world economic summit in May, China said it has no intention of following world carbon reduction rules - in fact it is going full speed ahead with a disregard for the environment that would make the old Soviet Union proud. Unless there is an economic downturn, by 2010 China will be producing more greenhouse gasses than the rest of the world combined! Next time someone suggests your 2-8-0 should have its fire dumped permanently ask them what they would like to do to stop China.

To the environmentalists, NIMBYs and think alikes, it is what they see and smell that disturbs them. None bio-degradable utensils, ineffecient home heating systems and poorly insulated homes do not bother them as long as they can afford to pay the utility bills. Check out Al Gore's mansion. A "leader" of greenies, he has an oversized, inefficient, gaudy mansion, but preaches that the rest of us need to clean up our acts.

Steam Lokies and other antique equipment typically have visible emissions with an odor, thus they may become a target. I doubt antique autos will ever become targets because they are so few, look good, and typically don't smell or have visible emissions.

Also, my Honda Accord is a '95, and gets excellent mileage (typically 33 to 38 mpg hwy.) and would probably pass any environmental testing (none required in my area). Also my wife's 4-Runner SUV gets about 24mpg. Which ones get 18mpg? American?

dan

I am a BIG Rush fan and that song is apripo! The whole "global warming" issue, in my opinion is nonesense. This movement is simply a bunch of people who feel guilty that they live in a very free and material wealthy society. So to make them "feel" better about that guilt, they have to make the rest of us feel bad about the things we enjoy doing. Preserving, interperting and operating steam locomotives is just one of those things.

I also think it is pretty arrogant for people to think that we have that much power as a species to make the kind of climate changes they say we do. Granted we do have some effect on the ecology, but I think that in the grand scheme of things, it is akin to getting a cut on your arm. To think that we can change the cooling and warming of the earth is nonesense. That is what the earth has been doing for millions of years. Cooling and warming! In fact Greenland is so named because it was.... GREEN! When the Vikings first landed there, it was a fertile farming land. Now it is... ICE! If we can't accurately predict the whether for next week, how can we predict environmental disaster in 10, 20 or 50 years?

I know that this is wayyyy off topic, but it points to one of the major issues that we face in the industry and asks the question of how we can combat this as a collective group!

Getting off my soap box...

Dave "eriemike"

I too consider myself a greenie and do what I can within reason to lessen my impact by recycling, walking, consuming less, working at home, etc.

I also agree with Rob that the recreational carbon users are in the minority. It's the big guys that pose the greatest threat.

However, in regards to global warming, I think it's arrogant of us not to believe that we don't have an impact on the earth and it's ecosystems. There is good solid evidence to support this, it's not just a bunch or "tree-huggers" trying to create a cottage industry and have us all assuage our guilt by scrapping our Hummers and eating TOFU. Even if you still refuse to buy into the theory of global warming, we all should be concerned with the effects of our patterns of consumption and the toxic waste generated from our disposable culture (i.e. cell phones, computers, electronics in our land fills, overfishing/pollution in our oceans, harmful emissions from our coal-fired generation plants, etc, etc.) Say what you want about Al Gore. but in reality the health/science of the planet is not a partisan issue.

What really cinched all of this for me was a few years back when Canada had some nasty forest fires. I live in Philadelphia, about 400 miles or so away. Walking out my front door I could smell the smoke as though it were right down the street. It's a big world, but not that big in reality that billions of people and their lifestyles can't have a negative impact on it.

Granted the earth has been here for a long time and will survive in one form or another with or without us. It's really up to us in some respects to decide to what degree we are going to exploit/destroy the planet and affect life as we know it.

And with every issue, there are always those to the far left/right with the majority in the middle. Not everyone who wants to do what's right for the environment is a "wacko."

Common sense does need to prevail when it comes to implementing responsible environmental policy and I do agree that this isn't always the case.

People do tend sometimes to act more on emotion and not fact and the rail preservation/tourist industry could easily become a target like it has in places like Durango, New Hope, etc.

Hopefully though we can organize as an industry to help allay the public's fears and make them see that we are not the real threat.

o.k. I am stepping down from my soap box.

A word from your friendly moderator. This thread is careening off the track. This is not the forum to discuss the pros and cons of global warming. Lets stick to the regulations as they affect steam and early diesel.

Hi,

I am amuzed over this whole issue, down below (in other posts), some one was wanting to know if burning old printing ink was something to consider or not, and others responded with stories on how well or not thier engine performed with varies "other" oils, and the end results in some cases of burning sensation of thier eyes and skin (if i remember the posts correctly).....

If one was to be shut down, i would think it might be over the burning of these toxin's opposed to that which the engine was designed for (other toxins).

Whether burning some fuel will accelerate the global warming issue of not is certainly beyond this forum, but I would think (and hope) that people would be responsable, not only for thier well being, but others around them.

If your not sure what sensations will come from buring certain materials, generally there are MSDS (material safty data sheets) available on line that will explain in some detail what you burn and the effects of it has on one's health.

My two cents worth (post production)!

Karl Johnson

Granted, it has gone off track, yet produced some very interesting and intelligent comments as far as I am concerned.

Is it all bad? Everybody on this board knows the feeling they get when everybody else in the car realizes you're ENJOYING those new GEVOS/SD 70ace's rounding the curve as the crossing gates go down.. maybe once in a while its ok to explore the periphery with fellow travellers? Its not acrimonious, so no blood, no foul?

Fitz,

I think your friendly moderators agree with you, but we continue to have concerns, and will continue to steer the discussion back to the impact on railroad preservation.

With that said, I too try to minimize my footprint on this small blue green planet.

I also see occasions when a little dirt will greatly aid my efforts at railroad preservation, including the use of certain high VOC solvents (for which there really is no green substitute,) occasional heavy metals (mercury sulfide makes the most incredible bright red stain, called vermilion by our predecessors,) and for preserved wood, I really like linseed oil. At home I have a gallon or two of traditional lacquer paint for a Fiat 850 I am slowly restoring….

I suspect we are crazy to burn unknown fuels in our mobile incinerators (a.k.a. oil burning steam locomotives) without some level of regulatory acknowledgment.

I have looked at various substitutes for old growth lumber for our car restorations, but am so far unimpressed. Long ago a college professor (at Cal Berkeley) said (in reference to logging and mining and its influence on the landscape) the “devil has the best lines….”

I also perceive that the regulators do not understand my concerns and need for exemptions to their rules.

I suspect the best solution would include our collective efforts to reduce impacts, and play well with poison, along with a unified effort (in concert with other branches of preservation) to lobby for appropriate well thought out exemptions to some rules to allow us to continue to operate these dinosaurs (metaphor intentional) for the education and enjoyment of our visitors…

The issue is one of my private nightmares…. both as a moderator, and as a preservationist.

Randy, there is hope, just look at this article that appeared today:

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/fina ... db11f4&p=4

With the changing of all those sunspots it will require the services of thousands of steam locomotives radiating 94% of their heat energy off as losses into the environment to keep us all warm. Sorry guys, no super power steam, this job requires the least efficient locomotives available.

Seems like the study of climate change is still a very imprecise science...

MX