A&WP 290 carried one in regular service and early in her excursion career. We still have it somewheres.

Dave,

When my eldercare situation clears up I will take you up on that offer. Learning to fire with oil is something I have wanted to do for at least 35 years.

John Bohon

With all due respect to the previous postings, I would like to contribute some suggestions based on my experience firing Baldwin (and one cantankarous ALCO) oil burners for Texas State RR and Ferrovias Guatemala. Where my observations differ from those of others, please believe that I have no desire to argue, but am only speaking up in the interest of safety.

Besides what I was taught by experienced old heads, what I am about to say is also standard procedure for CB&Q, as laid out in our textbooks from the steam days. The first and most important point I want to make is that the correct way to fire up an oil burner is as follows:

After checking water level, making sure the engine has the brake applied or is secured with track chains, cylinder cocks open, throttle pinned shut, reversor in neutral, then you go up top, check the fuel level, and lift the pin. Open the damper, uncover the stack, open the fuel valve on the supply line, and then drain whatever water condensed in the fuel tank and oil line after the last blowback. Whether you use steam or air to fire up, you also have to open the blower and atomizer valves good and wide for a minute until they spit out all the condensate. Otherwise, your fire will huff and puff and keep going out for at least an hour. I open the door and look around inside the firebox with a lantern, inspecting the sheets, staybolt heads, and brickwork. (When we used thick oil in Guatemala, we put burning waste or rags on the supply line so the fuel would flow, but we never needed tank heat to fire up. Of course cold climates or various fuels will differ.) THEN you can light it.

When it comes to the big event itself, you first crack the blower, and you NEVER stand in front of the firedoor. Open the firing valve for a second and spill a shot of fuel onto the firebox floor. I hang a diesel soaked rag or piece of waste over the firedoor and get it started burning before tossing it a foot or two in front of the burner, so it lands in the puddle of fuel. On those rare occasions when I miss my mark, I use a fire hook to position the rag. You should have plenty of light to see the mouth of the burner now, so you adjust the firing valve to the point where fuel just begins to dribble out. This method doesn't require a mark, pin, or notch on the fuel quadrant, and it doesn't even require a well adjusted linkage to work right. THEN YOU GENTLY OPEN THE ATOMIZER. It will light with a perfectly smooth idle fire EVERY SINGLE TIME if you do it this way. Try it once and you'll be convinced.

If you turn on the atomizer first, and then start adding fuel, you have an excellent chance of setting yourself on fire, causing one of those white gas explosions, or at least working way too hard trying to adjust your fire so it builds pressure slowly and doesn't smoke too much. When you see a bunch of black smoke during fireup, you better look under the engine because you probably started a fire somewhere, and you just don't know it yet. Naturally, you should always have a firehose handy. A small oil fire can be put out easily with water. IF YOU GET A FIRE GOING UNDER THE GANGWAY, YOU BETTER PUT IT OUT OR MOVE THE ENGINE BEFORE THE FUEL HOSE BURNS THROUGH.

When it comes time for changeover from air to steam, I gently turn on the steam over a period of five minutes or so, then I gently shut off the air, again taking my time and letting the condensate work out of the steam line from the turret, and giving the fire time to stabilize. I usually change over at around fifty psi, but it can vary considerably depending on the timing of my coffee break. Don't forget to use implement pins in all your gladhand connections, too, while under pressure.

I always keep the blower cracked as a hedge against flashbacks or white gas explosions. It doesn't take that much steam to do this, and it will save you a lot of grief. Some previous posters have mentioned seeing engines standing in the station with the blower and the pops all opened up. That isn't necessary. The trick is to balance the adjustment of fuel, atomizer and blower, so that the pressure stays 5 or 10 pounds below lift off. You should, however, lift at least one safety valve once during every eight hour shift as a check. I just watch the throttle, reversor, air brake valve, water glass, steam gauge, and stack, and adjust as needed. The engineer has plenty to do without babysitting me, so, NO, we don't "call out throttle settings". On good oil, this is a pretty easy trick once you get it, and a well set up engine practically fires herself. On diesel or waste oil, many more adjustments are required much more often. I think I'd just as soon fire a QJ as mess with that stuff....

There was mention made of brickwork being set up to protect firebox sheets which don't have water behind them for cooling. IF THIS EVER HAPPENS, KILL THE FIRE IMMEDIATELY. The whole point of a fireman is to keep ALL FIREBOX SHEETS COVERED WITH WATER ALL THE TIME. What the brickwork does is protect staybolt heads from being melted off, and prevent the flame from being focused on a single spot on the door sheet with sufficient intensity to melt a hole in it even when there is plenty of water. According to AE Bruce, the tempreature of an oil fire is between 3500 and 5000 degrees. Usually it only takes a small, clean, hot fire to do what most steam engines need to do in this day and age.

There was also mention made of the standard safety rule prohibiting relighting your fire off the bricks. Well, I got news for you --- When everything is red hot and YOUR BLOWER IS OPEN, it's no problem. Matter of fact, in most conditions of service if your fire goes out, you can relight it easiest and quickest just by turning off your atomizer for a few seconds and then opening it back up. Try it once and you'll be convinced.

There are many versions of oil firing setups, but the simple, tried and true Baldwin setup does great with decent fuel, and will burn anything if you insist. Another contributer mentioned the burners getting gunked up or glazed with crummy fuel. Here's what you do: When shutting down, you first blow back through the fuel line into the tank, and you also open the atomizer wide for a minute with the fuel cut off to clear the ports. This is pretty standard. To clear a clogged or glazed burner orifice, first drop the pin and close the fuel supply valve, open blower wide, and crack the firing valve. THEN GENTLY OPEN THE BLOWBACK VALVE. Then you can gradually open both the blowback and the firing valve all the way, blasting and destroying any trace of slop in the burner. Then, shut it all down, being carefull not to blow the fuel hose off the supply line in the process.... Try it once, and you'll be convinced.

As usual, Sam speaks many truths - but the other reason for the firebrick lining is to provide the thermal mass / heat sink that would be provided by a few hundred pounds of burning coal in a coal burner, and "iron out" the peaks and valleys in the fluctuating oil fire.

dave

Ah yes, Doug Stanfield. Were it not for his wisdom those locomotives may have had peticoats and a damper that was opened more than 1/3 of the way. After getting into calculations for figuring required opening square footage(modern, Nigel Day, stuff not baldwin specs) I had the thought that those two engines had only 1/5 of the required open area. But who needs the air passages in the fire pan when you can't develop draft in the first place;).

Yes, Sam has it pretty much correct. There are always variations on how to safely do oil firing. We used to switch from house air to steam as he described. Then it occured to me after research and reading up on the subject that this was not a good idea because you will either get air into the boiler if the air pressure is greater than the steam pressure. Or, you will get steam and water into the air line. So, we stopped doing the switch over method as Sam described. From what I read from SP Engineers, shuting down and relighting is the preferred method. See my earlier posting for the references.

I shut down the fire and turn off the house air coming into the firing manifold. I open the turret and one injector and clear the water from the turret manifold. If you have already disconnected the house air you can use the house valve just below the firing manifold to expunge the water. Then I clear the water from the atomizer. Next I add newspaper or an oily rag to the fire box. Most often the paper or rag will ignite off the door sheet bricks. Now I relight the fire and adjust for no smoke in the cab and a bright fire that I know will bring up my pressure at 1 lb/minute. As steam pressure builds it is necessary to go back and readjust the atomizer periodically.

Our house air is a mobile compressor that delivers 130# of air. So it does not require much atomizer to keep a bright fire. When we switch to steam around 45 to 50 lbs, the atomizer setting will be higher because of the lower pressure. But once operating pressure is achieved, the atomizer setting is pretty much the same as with the house air. On occasion, by necessity, I have started a fire on 20 lbs steam. It has a tendency to drip, so I have a pan or pail to catch the drips until I can get enough pressure to stop the dripping.

This has been a great discussion, and as always I have learned something. When you stop learning, you might as roll over and give it up, and I'm not ready to do that yet.

This afternoon I am off to SVRy for another Engineer for a Day (EFD) tomorrow. This program has really sharpened my firing and running skills. Teaching someone else to do the job forces me to think ahead more than I otherwise would do.

If you want to learn to operate a steam locomotive with a freight train in tow, or learn to fire, sign up for the SVRy EFD program.

dan

www.svry.com

[quote]There was mention made of brickwork being set up to protect firebox sheets which don't have water behind them for cooling. IF THIS EVER HAPPENS, KILL THE FIRE IMMEDIATELY. The whole point of a fireman is to keep ALL FIREBOX SHEETS COVERED WITH WATER ALL THE TIME. What the brickwork does is protect staybolt heads from being melted off, and prevent the flame from being focused on a single spot on the door sheet with sufficient intensity to melt a hole in it [/quote]

Well first the water level would never drop that low on the sheets, that's is next to empty. I stand by my remark that the brick is to protect the sheets that do not have water behind them. Not that the brick is to protect the sheets when ALL THE WATER GOES AWAY, cripes. The brick or castable Protects the metal pan that goes all the way up to the mudring. Without this the pan warps. The brick work on the flashwall does cover the door sheet at the bottom side. This is exactly for the reason I stated, it keeps the direct flame from stricking the metal and burning it.

There are different light off procedures for different locomotives and these are also outlined in papers from different companies. The locomotive I manage will not pool oil on the floor, rather it runs out onto the ties. To keep that from happening the atomizer is drained and cracked before the oil is opened. There is never a problem from gassing using this method. Also if the fireman misses his mark with the burning waste he doesn't have time to pull a hook off the tender and wave it around the firebox 11 or 12 feet to the burner in order to pull it into the oil path. It is faster to light another waste and hit the mark. Our fireman don't miss though.

Your treatise on "The correct way to light a fire" is mostly given procedure and with some subtle variations most everyone does it that way. Details to this extent were just not posted, doesn't mean that nobody is doing this.

[quote]According to AE Bruce, the tempreature of an oil fire is between 3500 and 5000 degrees.[/quote] This is crazy, never happen. The firebox temps on an oil burner can approach 2600F. Christ 2000F is white heat.

The first time I had to attend one of those investigations they used to hold in the roundhouse foreman's office, my griever told me "The rules aren't made to work by. They're made to fire you by."

So, yes, I also have seen a copy of the T&NO rules for oil firing, and I believe that they do indeed have the rule regarding changeover included as you say. Before I make a case for disregarding this rule, I want to say that if you follow it, YOU DAMN WELL BETTER FOLLOW THE OTHER ONE ABOUT NOT TRYING TO LIGHT IT OFF THE BRICKS.

Tell me a couple things just for giggles, please: What's the harm of a bit of steam in the air hose ??? Compressed air has water in it, anyway, unless you have an air dryer and moisture traps on your system.... Now, why not get some air in the boiler if that's what happens ??? During your shift you will fill and empty the boiler many times over. When you need to avoid air being trapped in the boiler is during a hydrotest because of hammer pounding, or during storage because water+steel+air=rust.

In Guatemala it was routine to fire up a steam engine with an airline hooked to the trainline of a diesel, and we changed over like I describe with no problems ever. I have observed this many times since 1988 in numerous locations. One time I even charged the boiler on a cold engine being towed by a diesel, by putting her in gear and opening the throttle while we were moving. When we stopped, I had the boiler full of water and 140 psi of compressed air. This time we didn't mess with the switching out the diesel and our train and putting on the trainline hookup. By the time the air pressure got low, the water was boiling, but you gotta take into account that it's a hot climate generally, and the engine and water was pretty warm to begin with. Besides that, we used preemo grade oil made for steamships. Anyway, how many rules did we break ???

The old timers at C&S Rice Yard and CB&Q 23rd street roundhouses told me it was routine to charge a dead engine with compressed air and make a short move or two --- shorter if the boiler had water in it, of course. Again the rule of not storing the engine with water and air in the boiler was followed, so an engine would usually be fired up or drained after that.....

Santa Fe had the slickest system, with a flapper check in the line from the turret to the firing manifold. When you got enough steam, they changed over all by themselves !!! I had my air compressor quit during a hot and heavy domino game in Rusk one afternoon, and I didn't know it for a while. When I went outside to check on my ex AT&SF big old fat green machine, Texas State RR 4-6-2 500, had kept going and had 100 psi of steam and a clean fire. By all rights, the whole service track should have been in flames because of my lack of attention to duty. I love that engine.

Whatever on the rules. All I want to do is not cause any harm to either the compressor or the boiler. I am not worried about air in the boiler because it will get adsorbed or work it's way out as I run. I am concerned about the compressor. We have no backup, and simply can't affored to damage it or the hose. Perhaps I am overly concerned. No matter, you do it your way, and I'll do it mine, no argument from me. Like I said there are many ways to oil fire, each having it's attributes and shortcomings. When you work for the Man I suspect you are less cautious than when you have a vested interest in the machine. We can't afford downtime as we have no backup.

I have sometimes moved the engine out to fire up using air. Like you said the air will get displaced later. Most of it gets released with the burb valve before firing in our fireup process. In fact we leave the whistle open to let us know when we have boiling and to further purge the air.

You said: "The rules aren't made to work by. They're made to fire you by." If you adhere to this axiom, you won't fire for us! Or for that matter operate in any position on our RR.

You said: Before I make a case for disregarding this rule, I want to say that if you follow it, YOU DAMN WELL BETTER FOLLOW THE OTHER ONE ABOUT NOT TRYING TO LIGHT IT OFF THE BRICKS.

I did not mean to imply I ignite off the bricks. As I said it so happens the bricks ignite the paper or oily rag. If the bricks don't then I light the paper or rag myself.

You also said: By all rights, the whole service track should have been in flames because of my lack of attention to duty. I love that engine.

That seems to be a contradiction in terms. You love something, but you ignore it? For shame.

I don't see any smiley face options, or I would add one here. Good debate and no animosity intended on my part! Ya'll hang in there and keep them there fires burning ya hear!

dan

Of course, there's a rulebook somewhere to say anything somebody can dream up. Really, I think since you're changing over at around 50 lbs of steam, you're unlikely to damage your compressor, but of couse I can understand you being careful and running your job your way, just as I always run mine my way. If I may point out, though, you are mistaken if you think that employees of big railroads are less cautious or are not invested in our jobs. If it's not only how we make our living, but it's where we spend most of our time, of course we want things to go well instead of tearing up our stuff and making life difficult for ourselves. In particular, the funerals of enginemen killed in the line of duty always spoke to me, and it made me think real good before excersing the new seniority slot that always came along with it.

You know, I always leave the vent valve open for awhile when firing up from a cold start so that the oxygen disolved in the water will be driven off. When it starts to fizzle pretty good, then I know that she's waking up. Of course, I didn't do that when I charged the engine with air, etc... but most of the time I think you're supposed to do that.

Well, meaning no dispespect, but I'm proud of my long and excellent service and safety record and wasn't planning to fire for you guys. Feel free to check up on me with the FRA or my previous employers or former co workers. If you want to see a circus sometime, come visit me in Denver, and we'll go down to the roundhouse and watch those poor devils try to follow every rule to the letter. It's a common method for screwing things up in a strike, but these guys are just trying to earn an honest living and stay out of trouble. You'll be convinced....

Excuse me please if I came across like I was criticizing how you do your job or accusing you of sloppy safety procedure. All I was trying to say is that lighting off the bricks is a very bad idea at changeover time. Of course, the rules all prohibit it all the time, but I think of all the times I've done it smoothly, saving so much commotion and trouble, without ever having a problem. But this is one of so many simple things in railroading that must be done right every single time --- if just once I had forgotten to have the blower open a crack, it would have been a different story.

Well, FOR SHAME is right. I'm not suggesting that anybody neglect their job, so maybe I can add a little to this. First off, both the temperature and humidity were plus minus 100%. Heat exhaustion was a very real on the job hazard, much as frostbite was on the BN. In both cases, we were forced to limit our exposure to the elements, and I had to be taught how to survive by the older workers --- at Rusk, a meat thermometer on the throttle quadrant would register 140 degrees in the cab of an engine standing IN THE SHADE fired up. Out in the sun was even worse, although it was pretty pleasant when we were moving. So, I took my break in the AC, and could usually hear the compressor running from in there. This one time I screwed up and got away with it, but I not only told everybody what happened, but I made damn sure to never do that again. It wasn't too hard to set it up so I could plop in front of a big fan just inside the shop door in the shade, and drink my coffe while watching what I was doing. And yes, I love that engine because she saved me. And furthermore, any railroader who claims to have never broken a rule, done something stupid, or ever been worthless, is NOT to be trusted....

By the way, I found a slide taken in December 1988 from the rear platform of the eastbound passenger train from Guatemala City to Puerto Barrios, which shows the tender now used behind your SVR 19 when it was in FEGUA work train service, spotted on a siding in the railroader's barrio of Gerona. I don't know how to attach it here, but I'd be happy to email you a nice scan of it. Also, if any of your gang hasn't yet seen the story of bringing those two tenders back from Central America, I can likewise email if you'd like.

This has been an fascinating and enlightening discussion. A question from the [non-experienced] public gallery (smile):

It brought up an ancillary aspect of oil firing: Historically, I recall that a number of smaller [less-endowed, financially] steam locomotive restorations/operations relied upon used/recycled motor oil for fuel as a cost-saving measure.

Is this practice still happening? Was the oil strained [it occurs to me that the particulate matter contained therein, if unstrained, could deleteriously affect burner operation, eventually]?

Yes indeed, for the last few days these two threads on oil firing have nearly made up for the social life I don't have....

In 25 words or less: YES to your first question. Some users have any of a variety of different systems to try and make this recycled or waste fuel work better, and others just dump whatever in the tender. If you're talking about a typical made in USA steam age firing setup, any kind of crud can be cleaned out of the burner easily by directing steam through it while the fuel is shut off. In a pinch these engines can function passibly well on lousy fuel that should never be used in a locomotive, and many do for years on end.

Interesting, yes.

The dangers of believeng there's only one "right way" to do anything, including lighting up. Everybody knows The Right Way is just the Central of Georgia's house organ.........or maybe not.

I've done lighting up both ways (and a couple more besides) and they work. The variation in locomotives and fuels will allow a fireman over time using the same collection of iron to decide what way he wants to use on what engine under what circumstances.

We recently took on a load of waste oil that was light in BTUs and heavy in smoke. Our firemen had a hard time forcing the fire to make steam and water on the mountain, even with a planned stop just short of the crest of the hill to build up a couple inches of water in the glass. After running through 6500 gallons of the junk, we were able to top of the storage tank with a new truckload of better waste oil. The situation is gradually improving - can't wait to get another good 6500 gallons. The "good" stuff is about between #3 and #4 fuel oil in BTUs - but has a lot more grunge of various kinds in it.

Waste oil is highly variable in quality and content, but a reputable supplier should be able to provide you with a specification for the oil you are buying. I think different states have different regulations for recycling waste oil as industrial fuel.

dave

Someone else answered this post below however. Waste oil used to come from service stations but now with recycling it comes from a lot of different facilities. Basically this is used motor oil but it will also contain brake fluid, anti-freeze, an occasional cigerette butt or two and whatever else may have been dumped into the mix. Who knows who and what was dumped in just to get it off the property.

This stuff isn't refined but it is processed to different degrees depending on the operation. This means that in a good operation it is cooked to drive out the water and screened to remove the big chunks. Some operations will centrifuge it to separate some of the junk out. This isn't high tech and they don't crack it.

The users for this mix are generally the cement industry and whatever other industries who use rotary kilns. There is a big demand for this stuff and for a while the demand was so high that all the future oil from the supplier I used was already purchased.

I have heard from some locomotive operators about getting recycled with water in it making it a bitch to fire with. I guess that is just the difference in recycling facilities.

I agree, recycled oil can be a gamble. We have two suppliers which helps keep the price down, and I have noticed an increase in quality. The current stuff we are using fires very well. A good Fireman can keep up steam and water and do it on a clear stack.

Like said earlier, watch out for that "free" stuff. A couple years ago I was firing as we left the yard where there was a slight tilt in the roadbed. My fire went out and I couldn't relite it. We stopped and I drained several gallons of anti-freeze and water out the bottom of the tender.

This year a member brought us several 50 gal drums of stuff. The first couple were ok. Then the third one had just about everying imaginable I am told. Rags, lumps of stuff and antifreeze. We didn't use anymore of it.

One final note on fuel. Three years ago we obtained a tank car from WP&Y. It came with some bunker-C included. Unknown to be me and my fireman that day the bunker-C had been put into the tender bunker. I couldn't get the stuff lite. Our Road Foreman of Engine had to come show us how to light bunker C. Once lite however, it was hot! I now know why it was used in the old days, it was cheap and hot. I was expecting bunker-C to be black, but it was brown. Looked like someone had emulsified oil and milk.

dan